We can just,
You ready? Yep. I
Have Good evening.
I'd like to call the order a regular meeting
of the zoning board of appeals on Wednesday,
January 8th at 7:30 PM Please rise
for the pledge of Allegiance.
I pledge allegiance all to the flag.
The flag of the United States of America and the Republic.
Republic from which it stand. Nation, one Nation under God,
indivisible, liberty and justice for
All.
Roll call Mr. England. Here.
Mr. Perry. Present. Mr. Lindsay Present.
Mr. Watts is absent.
Mr. Higgins, it's absent. Mr.
Starch present. Mr. Jersey's present. Mr.
Clifft is temporarily absent. He's running late though.
So Mark him is currently absent.
And Chairman sfa Present,
I'd like to make a motion to, um, excuse Mr. Watts
and, uh, Mr. Higgins, uh,
since they both did contact us that they weren't gonna be here,
Support A motion by Secretary Jersey.
Support by Mr. Perry to excuse Mr. Watts. And Mr. Higgins.
All in favor? A Aye They have been excused.
This brings us to the adoption of the agenda tonight.
Tell 'em about the use Variance first. Yeah,
So since we don't have a full board tonight, um,
and there's a use variance on item seven, I would request
to at least, um, actually as the petitioner
for item seven currently here.
Um, yes. Did we, yeah.
If you could go to approach real quick,
just wanna make sure that you wanna be heard tonight with,
with us being down two members.
Three, I think
I, I think we would still want to be heard tonight.
I think it's an issue that we could probably just resolve
this, this evening and
O Okay. Sounds good. Yeah.
And since,
since this is your second time coming back,
I would make a motion to the board that once you know, Mr.
Cliff had a couple items he wanted to discuss on this item.
Um, um, once Mr.
Cliff shows up that we would proceed with your item
after whatever petitioner's at the podium.
So you don't have to wait till the end of the meeting,
You're the boss. Is
That okay? Okay. Yeah. Thank you.
So I'll make that motion, um,
that we move item seven to be heard
after if Mr.
Cliff shows up. If he doesn't, then we'll just, um, we'll,
we'll proceed, um,
accordingly at the end of the end of the agenda,
um, with item seven.
So I'd like to make a motion move item seven to
be heard after the last applicant.
Once Mr. Cliff arrives support,
We have a motion by Secretary Jersey, support
by Mr. England, uh, to kind
of rearrange item seven tonight, depending on Mr.
Cliff. All in favor?
Aye. Item seven has been
Mr. Chair.
Are we gonna ask if any other petitioners?
Yes, Absolutely. Yes. Okay. Go ahead Ms.
Birdie. How are you?
Good, thank you. I'm, uh, representing item number 14.
We'd really like to present our matter in front
of a full board Okay. If that's okay?
Absolutely, yes. Okay.
So, okay, with that being said, um, is there, well,
let's see if there's anybody else in the audience
who would like to do the same before I make another motion.
Okay. So, go ahead.
This is, I do want
to give everyone in the audience the opportunity tonight
to re, to reschedule
or to postpone their, uh, request, uh,
to, when we have a full board.
Um, tonight puts you at a slight disadvantage
that you need five yes votes.
And we are, we're currently down three members.
We should be down, uh, just two members. Two members.
I'm here to speak on the same item.
And, uh, there's just a couple weeks
where I'm not gonna be here in the next coming months.
So I would just hate to not be here
because I have quite a few concerns about what's
trying to be passed.
Which item is that? I believe it's 14. She said
Item 14. Item 14.
So, yeah. Um, I understand there's no board.
I don't know if there's a way that, um,
'cause I live right next to the business
that's trying what they're trying to pass.
So I just want to make
Sure that I'm here. Well, the next available
date for the meeting would
be February 12th.
So that would, are you, you okay with that Ms. Birdie?
February 12th, late. This gentleman's here. Okay.
He's not, we can move it. Okay.
I am pulling it up. Okay. Right
Now. I'm so
Sorry. And if for some reason you're
not here, you, you
of course can always write into the, to the,
you know, to our office. And
I will be gone the week of the 12th.
So what would be the, my other option?
You could, you could email, um, cal, um, Nicole.
She could give you her email and,
and send in your whatever statement you wanna send.
And it'll be read into the record up here.
Yeah, I definitely wanted to do it in person.
I mean, if I could at least speak to who's here
and then maybe you guys take that into consideration
and I could write an email.
Sure. But if it's something that you guys wanted
to vote on at a later date, 'cause not everyone's here.
I totally understand. But I definitely would like
for you guys to at least hear me
personally, if that's possible.
Could we move it to open business?
I don't know if we would be able to move it
to open business because we we're down,
you know, two board members.
I don't think it would be appropriate.
I I would leave it up to the city attorney.
Is there any way we could pick the week after the 12th?
There's, well, there's no week
after the next meeting would be March 12th.
March 12th. Yeah.
And I don't know if Ms.
Birdie would you, is that I'm available?
Is that too far down? Too far? Too far out?
I don't wanna put this gentleman in a predicament.
I, I'm okay with March's fall.
Okay. So we'll go. Item 14 is item 14.
Item 14.
If that's okay, then we can postpone if
it's mutually agreed.
Mr. Wpon, did you,
I wanted to speak on behalf of the city that, uh,
we have ongoing, um, litigation on this
and we will postpone that until after the meeting's heard.
So whatever you guys decide with, um,
everything will be postponed from the city. Okay.
Great. Thank you for that.
Thank you so much guys. Okay. So, so far,
So since We have seven, uh, kind of flowing
Tonight, I'm not, I'm not item seven.
I'm really sorry. I, I thought we,
I I thought there was only one waiver issue tonight.
I apologize. I'm item 10. I apologize.
You're item 10. Oh, okay. Okay, great.
We'll get this straightened out then. Well
Actually, then we don't need to, to move
anything since he's here.
So I would like to, um,
Well, item seven is still a use
that we're floating, but they're not
Present. Point of order.
Mr. Chairman.
I'm sorry, Mr. Cliff? Yeah, point of order, sir.
I I'm present now. I was late.
I made the board aware
that I was going to be a little bit late.
I just want to make sure that I'm good
to take my seat on the DS this
Evening. Thank you. Welcome.
We'll, we'll Mark, mark, you present?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, item settle
Is, is the petitioner present tonight for item seven?
Well, as a courtesy, do you wanna just move it
to the last item?
And if they're not here, we can dismiss it.
Sounds good. Um, so I'd like to make a motion since,
um, petitioner is, um, wrong about,
about being item seven.
We are going to, um, move item seven to the end
of the agenda and
make it item 16
Support.
And then also, I'm sorry.
And also move item 14
to the March 12th meeting.
The mo Both of those, both of those, uh, agenda items,
um, are the changes.
I, I submit my motion
Support and support.
We have a motion by Secretary Jersey, support
by Mr. England to move item seven to item 16
and to postpone item 14
until March 12th.
Correct. All in favor?
Aye. Aye. Aye. The agenda has been updated.
That was rough. Sorry. Sorry about that. So
This brings us to item five, the approval
of the regular meeting minutes of November 13th.
Uh, Mr.
Chair, I'd like to make a motion to table the, um,
regular meeting, minute minutes of November 13th, 2024
to the February 12th meeting support.
We have a motion by Secretary Jersey support for Mr.
Cliff to table, uh, the approval
of the November 13th minutes.
All in favor? Aye. Aye.
The November 13th, uh, approval
of the minutes have been, uh, table.
This brings us to the approval of the December 11th minutes.
Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a motion to table the
December 11th, 2024 meeting, minutes till February 12th
as well support
A motion by Secretary Jersey.
Support by Mr. Cliff to table the approval
of the December 11th minutes until February 12th.
Um, February 12th. Yes.
February 12th. All in favor? Aye.
Aye. The approval
of the December 11th meetings minutes have been approved.
This brings us to item six.
Item six, applicant Deju Randall,
representative Dewana Rand Cameron.
Description 2 4 7 0 1 cottage
grant has requested permission to operate a group daycare.
It's group daycare home.
Good evening. Good Evening.
If you could please start
with your name and address for the record.
Dewana Rand 2 4 7 0 1 Cottage Lane.
Thank you. You were here at the last meeting.
Would you, is there anything you'd like to,
um, reiterate or add?
Um, not necessarily.
Just trying to still open up my group daycare home
for the community and single parent home.
Okay. Okay.
Close the public portion first and then, okay.
Thank you for those comments. This is a public hearing.
Is there anyone in the audience
who wishes to speak on this item?
Not seeing anyone. I close the public portion of the meeting
and turn it over to the board for discussion. Mr.
Chairman. Mr.
Englin, before we start, I'd like to, I would like
for someone to make a motion, uh,
to open this up for reconsideration.
I'd like to make a motion to open up this item
for reconsideration support.
We have a motion by Mr.
Englin, support by Mr. Perry to open item six up
for reconsideration.
All in favor? Aye. Aye.
The item is open for reconsideration.
Do you have a comment Mr. Eng?
Yes, I do. Mr. Chairman, I'm kind
of gonna re reiterate a little bit of what I said last time.
We got new information on what way we're supposed
to address this issue.
And I still feel strongly that
in-home daycare is an asset to a neighborhood.
And I'll repeat what I said, that my daughter went to one.
It was very, very nourishing for her.
She was in a home atmosphere through the whole thing.
And every place could be a little different,
but I had a great experience with it.
Now, I did check I couldn't find any.
We have, we have hundreds
of these daycare centers in the City
of Ward in these in home daycare centers.
But I checked around
with people I know up at the police department
and they, none of them knew of any incidences they ever had
at one of these home daycare centers.
So it's an asset, it's not a burden to the neighborhood
and I'm 100% for it.
And I hope my colleagues will follow my lead.
Thank you. Thank you for those comments.
I do, uh, notice that there is a, a email that
should be read into the record.
Uh, yes, Mr. Chair. Um, it's an email from, um, Mr.
Jim Henge. Um, he says I live very near.
He doesn't provide an address.
Um, he says, I live very near the proposed daycare
and I do not think it's a good idea
or a good location for, for a daycare.
That's all.
Are there any other comments from the board
just given the new information
provided by the city attorney?
Um, I I'm gonna be voting yes on this item just
due to how the ordinance is written.
That it's not a typical, um, variance
that follows the typical, uh, five criteria.
Are there any other comments from the board? If
There's no other comments, Mr.
Chairman, I'd like to make a motion.
Please do. I'd like to make a motion to, uh,
give permission to operate a daycare home
due to the fact that it's not a detriment to the area,
it is an asset to, especially those people who have children
that need someplace to put 'em.
'cause nowadays, husbands and wife are both working.
And that's it. Thank you.
Support. We have a motion by Mr. England.
Support by Mr. Perry to approve the request as stated.
Mr. England? Yes. For the reason stated in the motion.
Mr. Perry? Yes. For the re stated in the motion. Mr.
Starch? Yes. For reason
Stated in the motion. Mr. Lindsay?
Yes. For
The reason stated in the Motion.
Uh, Mr. Cliff, I still maintain my no vote.
Mr. Jersey votes Yes.
For the reasons stated in motion Chairman sfa
Yes. For the reasons stated
in the motion,
your request has been approved.
Thank you. Thank you. Have a good night.
This brings us to item eight.
Item eight. Applicant Jeffrey Atkins,
representative Jeffrey Atkins.
Common description, 2 4 4 8 3 Antoinette,
your answers requested permission
to replace several sections of privacy fence panels
with reverse orientation.
Good evening. Good Evening.
If you could please start with your name and address.
Jeffrey Atkins. 2 4 4 8 3 Antoinette.
Thank you. Would you please tell us about your request?
Well, my fence was put up 17 years ago.
Never had a complaint from anybody.
I've maintained it throughout all those years.
I've replaced, you know, sections that were broke.
Um, it's a safety, maintenance
and appearance that I'm, you know, asking for the variance.
I've had multiple problems
with my neighbors next door since they moved in about
four or five years ago.
They have two pit bull dogs. One is very, very friendly.
The other is not. It has fence aggression
and it breaks the bottom slats of my privacy fence.
So if the fence were to have to be turned around,
I would not be able to replace those.
'cause I can't go on the neighbor's property to fix it.
Um, you know,
'cause it, that's where it's screwed in is I would be on
the, uh, the flat side.
So the, um, I have police reports
where they have broken the fence on September 11th
or September 13th when the inspector came out
and I allowed 'em on the property to check all of it.
They originally came out
and said that all the sleds were broke
'cause the neighbor has, uh, plywood on the bottom.
When the inspector came onto my side of the property,
there was not one broken sla
'cause I had just replaced five sections.
Um, when the inspector left, I left.
When I came back home at 1:00 PM
my neighbors had kicked in three SLAs of my fence.
I had to call the police. I had a police report on that.
The inspector had the pictures prior to it.
I mean, it's, it is been a nightmare.
And I just, I would like it to be the way it is.
And if it is turned, if I have to turn those new sections
around, the appearance is gonna look horrible.
Not only for me, but for all the other neighbors.
So, I mean, I, I don't know what else to to say.
I do have pictures where there is not one
broken slide on my fence.
I have the police reports here to show you
where I've had to call on them.
So
Thank you for those comments.
This is a public hearing.
Is there anyone in the audience
who wishes to speak on this item?
Not seeing anyone. I close the public portion of the meeting
and turn it over to the board for discussion.
Mr. Chairman, Mr. England,
I've always been an advocate
for fencing when it was put up to have
the beautification side facing out.
And that's the way we've always voted on him in the past.
But I understand with as much fencing
as this gentleman has up right now to tell him that
he's gotta put seven sections facing in
and a hundred sections that are facing the opposite way
is kind of ludicrous.
Um, uh,
madam secretary or attorney?
Attorney lady. I'm sorry, question.
Can we stipulate in this motion if it gets made
that defense can be replaced with the
nice side in replacing certain sections,
but at some point when permits are brought
to replace the whole fence, it's gotta be built to code?
Yes. Is that okay with you, sir?
What? What do you mean? That the whole fence has to be
Replaced? If somebody, say you
sell the house 10 years from now
and they come in and wanna knock that fence down
and put a new one up,
they're gonna have to put it up to code.
Okay. Or say 10 years from now,
you decide you want a whole new fence. But
I could still be able to, like, if one section gets bad,
I could still get a permit and replace it.
That's why I stipulate it when the whole fence
needs to be replaced.
Okay. It has to be replaced to code. Okay.
So that, that's my comment. So,
Mr. Chair,
um, you know, one
of my biggest pet peeves in this town is, is privacy fences.
They're facing the wrong way
and they're, they're, they're omnipresent everywhere.
Um, so it just kind of lends the question,
how many were made without a permit?
How many were just thrown up?
Um, I do like the creative language and what Mr. Um, Mr.
Eng England's trying to do. Um,
but I mean, to me, this is a tough one.
Um, 'cause I mean, if, if, who's
to say they want to come down and tear?
I mean, if they, the whole privacy.
If, if, if you wanna make a
motion for the whole privacy fence.
So if somebody wants to tear off just a section, replace it
'cause it's worn down for a new owner,
they're just gonna place a privacy fence up. That's,
I can't figure out how to word it any different.
Yeah, I know. I,
My concern is I don't have a problem with, uh, with Mr.
England's language. It's just the idea
of when something is grandfathered in at some point
when it crumbles.
Okay. And the whole thing is replaced.
You, like you said, Mr.
Englin, he would lose the, the variance on this.
But the problem is if he just piecemeals one section
after another for the next 10 years, then you're,
I've got a cure for that.
Let's hear it. What If we tell, like,
the grandfather clause, I think is you gotta maintain 50%
of the property on an outgoing,
ongoing business type situation.
It could be a little off, but it's something like that. Ms.
Mr. Wa, did you have clarity on that?
Can, can I say something in
response? What the gentleman said
In a moment, we're gonna have Mr.
Waer give us a comment.
Um, this is non-conforming fence.
He did pull, or a permit was pulled on the original fence.
So it was legal, it was prior to 2013.
Um, the non-conforming replacement is
for 30%
and that is stipulated at repairs not replacement.
So if you wanted to use the 30% of the total fence as far as
being replaced at a time, then
that would probably be the effective number
to match the ordinance.
Okay. Okay. I can, I
I can makes sense to me Wording for that to fit.
If, if they want me to, I would suggest that we come up with
no more than 30% can be replaced at any time.
And if any more than 30% is replaced,
then it must have a permit and installed under code.
Yes. Think you get behind that.
That's a good one. That works for me.
Is the petitioner in agreement with that? Yes.
So if nobody else has any a,
I'd like to give permission to replace several sections
of privacy fence panels with reversed orientation
under the guidelines that if there's ever more than 30%
replaced at one time, that
permits must be pulled
and the fence needs to be put up under code
Support.
I have a motion by Mr. Englin, support by Mr.
Cliff to approve the request as read.
Mr. Englin? Yes. For the reason. State in the motion.
Mr. Cliff? Yes. For the reasons stated in the motion.
Mr. Lindsay? Yes. For The reason stated
In the motion Mr. Perry? Yes.
For the reason stated In the motion.
Mr. Starch? Yes. For the reason stated in the motion.
Secretary Jersey says yes.
For the reason stated in the motion. Chairman Sefa? Yes.
For the reason stated in the motion
your request has been approved.
What will they send something?
So I have that for a record.
Mr. Eron will can answer that or Nicole.
Okay. You'll get a letter in the mail. Alright, thank you.
Thank you.
Take This Brings us to item nine.
Item nine, applicant. Kurt Ola, representative Kurt Ola.
Common description, 2 1 9 8 9.
Mosh variance has requested permission
to one retain a 10 foot by 12 foot gazebo
and eight foot by 12 foot shed.
Two to retain shed outside of the side building lines
of the primary residence.
Three combined square footage of accessory structures
to 744 square feet.
Good evening. Good Evening.
If you could please start with
your name and address for the record. My
Name's Kurt Ula and my address is 2 1 9 8 9 Mash Avenue.
Thank you. Please tell us about your request.
Um, well I need the extra storage.
Um, I put it in the location I thought would be best.
Um, it is behind my garage.
Uh, I do have plenty of easement on the, on the actual, uh,
easement line for power lines and SW and so forth.
I kept it as close as I could to the garage.
It's really not visible from
anywhere except when you're walking.
I live on a corner lot When you're walking towards my
garage, you can see it,
but that's not the front of the house.
You can't see it from the front of my house.
Um, and as far as the gazebo, I just did it to approve
and prove the, the whole, the whole appearance,
appearance of my household.
I've worked very, very hard on this piece
of property for a long time.
Thank you for those comments. This is a public hearing.
Is there anyone in the audience who wishes
to discuss this matter?
If you could please approach, if you wouldn't
mind stepping over from the podium.
Yes, we can hear, hear your comments.
Could you start with your name and address please?
My name is Shannon Rule. My address is 2 1 9 1 6 mash.
Thank you. I am their neighbors.
I feel that if the rest of the city has to follow the rules,
why don't they, if they can call the city on their neighbors
and expect their neighbors to oblige
by whatever they're calling on,
they should too plain and simple.
You know, there, there are rules and,
and they know those rules because he's a, he's a plumber.
He knows things have to be up to code.
He knows things have to have a permit to be built.
They chose not once,
but twice not
to give the permit plain and simple.
I i, I, I don't care that they're trying
to better their yard because it does look nice.
But if they're gonna call the city on their neighbors,
what makes them so, so different from their neighbors?
That's all I have to say.
Thank you for those comments. This is a public hearing.
Is there anyone else in the audience
who would like to speak on this item?
Not seeing anyone. I close the public portion of the meeting
and turn it over to the board for discussion.
Mr. Chair. Um, I did drive by the property
and it, you know, the gazebos already
out, the shed's already up.
Um, the shed is based off of where the,
or the way the yard is oriented on the corner.
It is pretty much outta sight.
I mean, there's no way to really see it from, from the side.
Um, it holds pretty good depth off the, off the back,
off the west side of the property.
It is close to the fence line of, I'm assuming, uh,
said neighbor's property.
Um, but the, the yard looks really good.
It's really, really well man manicured.
Um, you could tell they put a lot of,
a lot of love and care into it.
So this is something I really, I I can get behind.
It looks, it looks good. I mean, it's,
it's, it's very tasteful.
Everything's, everything looks solid.
I'm still gonna have to get, you know, building
to go out there and prove anyway.
So, um, so I, I don't have a problem with any of this.
I'll yield the floor.
Mr. Chairman. Mr. Engler,
I have no problems with this setup that way.
The only thing I have a problem with is,
is are you a licensed plumber?
If you could please come back up to the podium.
No, I'm not a licensed plumber.
Okay, well, I will understand
and please, I don't mean this negative,
but the ignorance of not knowing what things are,
but if you are a licensed plumber,
like I'm a licensed contractor, you know what is required
of you whenever you do something on a piece of property.
So I am, again, it's not me scolding you.
I understand sometimes you don't know what's going on
because you haven't been educated in that field.
So I don't have a problem with this, this setup here.
I just want you to know that anytime you put anything up,
you need to get pulled permits. Alright,
My bad. That out
Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Cliff? Through the chair to the petitioner sir,
what, three feet from the side fence line?
Yeah. Okay.
My house is four and a half feet. Your house
Is four and a half. So we're talking about foot
and a half off from being
behind the house directly.
Yes, sir. And it's, it's plenty of room to maintain the,
the property sitting in
between the, the shed and the fence. What it sitting,
What's it sitting on?
It's on a slab. Okay. There is a rat wall.
What are we storing in it?
Uh, it'd be a snowblower, lawnmower. The yard equipment.
Uh, just stuff that I can't keep in my coolers.
Coolers, uh, stuff that I can't keep in my garage. My
Gardening items, Gardening items.
Just things that keep the yard maintained.
Keep your vehicles in the garage.
Yes. Yield the floor. Thank you, sir.
Any other comments or possible motions?
Mr. Chair, if nobody else
has anything to say, I'd like to make a motion.
I'd like to make a motion to grant the petitioner one
to retain a 10 foot by 12 foot gazebo
and a eight foot by 12 foot shed to retain two
to retain shed outside of the side building lines
of the primary residence.
Three combined square footage of accessory structure.
744 square feet Due to the fact it's not a detriment
to the area and size of shape of the lot
Support, We'll have a motion by Secretary Jersey.
Support by Mr. Englin to approve the request is read Mr.
Jersey votes? Yes. For the reason. State of the motion.
Mr. Englin? Yes. For
The reason. State of the motion.
Mr. Starch? Yes. For the reason.
State of the motion Mr. Perry? Yes.
For the reason. State of the motion.
Mr. Lindsay? Yes. For the reason. State of the motion.
Mr. Cliff? Yes.
For the reasons stated in the motion. The motion
Chairman Safa? Yes. For
the reasons stated in the motion,
your request has been approved. Thank
You very much. Thank you. Thank
you.
This brings us to item 10.
Item 10. Applicant mo MDK hospitality,
L-L-C-D-B-A SHENANIGANS Representative Seth Tompkins rep.
Common description 2 4 0 8 0 8 0.
Shaner variance has requested permission
to retain a non-conforming ground sign with within nine feet
of the North property line
and with the leading edge
of the sign cabinet extending past the East Property line.
Good evening. Good evening. Hi.
If you could start with your
name and address for the record.
Sure. My name is Seth Tompkins.
My office address is, uh, 2 6 1 0 0 American Drive,
suite 500 Southfield, Michigan. And, uh,
Uh, Mike, This is Mike Urban.
He's, um, also was listed on the application
as an authorized representative.
He's, uh, one of the owners of the real estate Closer.
He's one of the owners of the real estate.
And tell him your address. Oh,
Uh, Mike Urban, uh, 3 8 4 0 6, uh,
Santa Barbara Clinton Township.
Thank you. Please tell us about your request.
Um, this is, uh, a sign
that has been standing there for at least 59 years.
Um, and my clients are probably,
we only have ownership, uh, records going back
about 25 years,
but they're the fourth owner
of the property in the past 25 years
that we saw from the change of the license
with Liquor Control as they're the, the a That's what I've
provided with, with you guys as part of the exhibit.
I know that the real estate's probably changed hands many,
many times more than that over the past 60 some years.
Um, my clients bought this. It used to be the Midway Bar.
Um, it's been there for a long,
long time if you've lived in Warren
and you've driven past it.
So, uh, they bought this.
They went through to get their certificate
of compliance in order to get properly licensed
as a liquor license business in the city.
And we were told that, that there was never a permit
that was ever pulled for this, uh, this sign.
It's a one of the lollipop signs, uh, pole
with a sign on top.
Um, my clients actually replaced the Midway bar sign
with a smaller sign that has less square footage
and has less of an encroachment than
what the Midway Bar sign had.
And so, um, we were taken aback that this was an issue
because, uh, you know, speaking
to the property owners next door, um,
it's a transmission shop that's been owned.
I operated there for like 58 years.
I spoke to the owner and he told me
that when his parents bought that property, they used
to go across the street and throw rocks at the sign.
So really we didn't, there was no way for us to know
that this sign was not in conformity.
Um, I didn't, I wasn't able to attach them as exhibits, uh,
because I did a Freedom of Information Act request.
And there were, there were multiple certificates
of compliance that have been issued
for this property previously in the past
with no issues of the signage.
Um, there's no historical record
that there's ever been a ticket issued with respect
to this signage until my client
got ownership of the property.
And so, uh,
because it's not an expansion of the use
that's been in existence for about 60 years and,
and maybe more, I only know about the guys from Next Door.
Um, I don't know when the,
the actual Midway Bar was established.
I have no clue. Uh, but it's at least 59 years ago.
So we just want to keep using
the sign the way it's been used.
And, um, we'd like to get the permission officially so that
my client and potential future owners don't run into the
same problem that my client's running into now.
Thank you for those comments. This is a public hearing.
Is there anyone in the audience
who wishes to speak on this item?
Not seeing anyone. I close the public portion of the meeting
and turn it over to the board for discussion.
Mr. Chair, real, real quick, Steve, I, quick question.
You know, with, with as much as, you know, restaurants
and all that, and I know they're, they don't have privy,
you know, bars and all that to signage and all that,
but there's, long story short, you got tons
of inspectors going in
and out of there from restaurant to, you know, zoning
and, and stuff like that.
I just wonder how, how does a sign get missed like
that for, for so long?
Well, the prior sign was non-conforming
because it didn't change from Midway Bar.
So as long as it was non-conforming,
they changed the case and everything else.
So that's when it lost its non-conformity.
They did it without pulling the permits,
otherwise they would've been told that it was non-conformity
before they changed it.
Um, so once they changed it, we started the enforcement
and everything else because it lost its
non-conformity at that point in time.
So, so, so initially when the sign was put up
58, 60 years ago when
I, it may have been put up
before, the city was a city, right?
The place had been correct. Our records,
we couldn't find anything on it.
So, so we considered it non-conforming
because anything we could see going back
was long enough and everything else.
Okay, that makes sense. That makes a little bit of sense.
Um, so, okay, thanks. That's,
Uh, no problem.
Um, May I respond to that?
Um, typically under property law,
you lose your non-conforming use if you're trying
to change the use or if you're trying to expand the use.
And so simply changing the signage without expanding the
sign as far as making larger square footage, is simply,
it's, it's the same thing as if you painted a house
that was red, blue, you're just changing
the color at that point.
You're just changing, changing the sign doesn't change
the use of the sign.
And we didn't, and there was actually less square footage
and less of an encroachment that was there.
So I, I disagree with the,
with the legal analysis that was provided.
And I do believe that if this was a prior legal
non-conforming use, then that would continue regardless
of whether the signage had changed
or not, as long as it wasn't expanded or changed.
And so I think changing the signage out itself doesn't
necessarily make the landowner used.
That use that was as a matter of Right.
Because it was illegal nonconforming use.
And that's all I just have a disagreement with, with
how this law is being interpreted.
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Englin,
A permit was not pulled on this sign.
Did you have a sign company install this sign?
We did. And a, a permit was applied for,
but it was not granted.
And so a ticket was issued.
And so that's why we're here now.
Well, any, again, go back to business.
They need to have, they, they, if it's a company
that did this, they should know
that a permit had to be pulled.
They also should know that you don't touch
that property without that permit once you've applied
for it either until you get your approvals.
So I'm not going to be swayed by that. Yes, sir.
What was the, the process that you replaced the casing
of the sign and then you were violated
and you filed for a, a permit?
No, I think that the permits were applied for
and it was just assumed they were going to be granted
because these are things that are done.
As a matter of course, I ran into the same situation in the
city of Farmington Hills with Mulligans.
It's a similar situation. It's on eight Mile Road.
It's been there for 60 years. Okay.
Under what, what happened there is they had
to replace the entire case.
And because in that situation,
a car hit it and it fell down.
And so originally the building department wanted us to go
before the zoning board of appeals there as well.
And then the planning department looked at it
and said, the new sign does is not any
bigger than the old sign.
Was it, you know, it's, it, they've made minor changes
to the name of of it.
It was different color.
But they said, but because there was no addition,
there's no, there was no expansion of the existing use.
That was the standard that it was given,
which is the correct standard that's given.
And so no, so no permitting,
no special permitting was needed in order for us to do that.
They granted the permit and then they just gave it to us.
And quite honestly, I thought that when this became an issue
and I spoke to the legal department,
we were gonna come into the same conclusion.
And I thought that once everyone here heard
that this has been a sign that's been up for 60 years
with no issue, and my client had bought this place,
redid all the plumbing, got all the permits pulled,
got all the inspections, redid all the electrical,
they made the place that was, I mean,
I think the prior owners didn't make any changes to it.
And so you had non-conforming 60-year-old plumbing
in there that was all replaced.
You know, the place is clean.
They made, they made it a beautiful place.
You know, it's probably, it's one
of the best bar burgers I've ever had.
And I didn't encourage all of you to go, uh, so, you know,
I just think that this is, you know,
this is a small business.
This is something that, you know, you, you look in the past
and you, you look at the certificates of occupancy
that were issued, and it specifically says
that this building is in compliance with all,
with everything and the city.
You know, um, I didn't think,
and I don't think that anyone would've thought
that there would've been a compliance issue with respect
to the placing of the signage
or the replace the placement of the pole
based upon the past use of the building
and the past compliance history with the building.
And so, you know, while I do understand that, yeah,
permits are, permits are pulled regularly.
And if you are, I mean, you're a building contractor,
you set it yourself, you know, permits are pulled regularly
with the anticipation that they're gonna be granted and,
and the work starts.
And so this is, yes, in a perfect world, I agree.
You apply for the permit,
you get the permit, you do the work.
But especially for a sign that has been there for 60 years,
I don't think anyone ever anticipated
that this was ever gonna be an issue.
And so, no, I, this is not, this is not a problem
that was caused by my client.
They didn't put the pole there. The pole is still there.
And that's part of the variance.
You know, the, the overhang that was there is,
is more than the overhang that is there now.
And so we we're not furthering an encroachment,
we're not expanding the existing use.
It's a smaller sign that was there before I provided a sign.
I provided pictures. I found a picture of the,
the midway bar.
It's attached as an exhibit.
You can see the old sign, you can see the new sign.
You know, you could see that the overhang is less,
you could see that it's smaller in square footage.
So it's, I anticipate
that there was gonna be a problem with permitting.
I think that, you know, yes, I understand
what you're saying, sir, but I just think in this
circumstance, it's not anything
that could have ever been anticipated.
Um, it's a 60-year-old sign,
Mr. Chairman. Has, has
the pole been replaced? No,
It's the same pole. Okay.
But the, see my interpretation is a little bit
different because if, if it was a sign
where the panel was changed out for the exact same,
using the existing casing, I think, well,
it's a non-conforming sign, but it should continue to exist
because the casing and the pole is the same.
But you're saying your client
replaced the casing of the sign?
Ev the, the, it's the original pole.
It's, it's smaller. It's, it's smaller
than the original one.
It's a smaller casing,
but it, it was replaced, which I, which I define as the,
the, the most substantial part
of the sign is, is the casing.
So it is a, in my mind, like an overhaul, a a new sign
that's not following, you know,
I know it's smaller than the, the, the previous sign.
Um, I, I, I, I think something has to be done.
I, I'm, I,
I don't wanna take away the sign,
but I just want the petitioner to understand that, um,
when there was a, a sign that was grandfathered in,
you know, it was non-conforming, well,
at some point the idea is
that the city cleans up their items that are not conforming
and to bring things up to, you know, the, the new ordinance.
So, uh, this is a, a tough one.
I'll probably reluctantly support this one tonight,
but if it does get passed, I want to warn the petitioner.
I would recommend putting some boulders
or something around that pole,
because in my mind, if that sign ever falls over,
that pole comes down, that's gonna be a, you know, real cut
and dry in my mind that replacing the, the pole is,
is gonna lose the, the, you know,
the designation.
Mm-hmm. But Mr. Mr.
Aland, do you have something else to add?
Uh, comment toward the, starting a job without
having the permit in your hand?
I've been building and worn 50 years
and I've never started a project without having my permits.
I commend you on that. I, because it comes
and bites you in the ass.
I, I, I, I'm not a builder. You can go ahead.
Um, being the owner of the place, I,
I think when we first got the, the sign company to do this,
uh, we assumed that they, they put the, the paperwork in
and we assumed it was, it was approved.
That's why we never really said anything
to 'em about when it was done.
We were moving so fast doing everything else
with compliance with the building.
Now that we on it, it made it look beautiful.
So we figured that they, they, I think as an owner,
I'm telling you, I made a mistake,
but I, I assume that when he,
he said he put the paperwork in, it was approved.
That's why he was putting a sign up.
That's, that's really why I think what happened.
That's the reason why I ask if there's a sign coming,
did it 'cause shame on him?
Yes. Yeah. No better than to go up there and hang a sign.
Yeah. I don't, I, I I feel bad or whatever.
That somebody else has gotta go through all this trouble
because you've got a contractor
that's not doing his job the way it should be done.
Absolutely. But we also on the other hand,
Assume he did because everyone we've hired has done
everything properly with, with the, with the city warrant.
And we have passed everything with flying colors.
And it's been a great place.
And like I said, we took a place
that was actually a dumpster and turned it into a diamond
and we figured that this guy did his job.
And that's our fault for assuming
that's, I apologize for that.
I mean, we actually had to, we had to hire a different
contractor in order to put the drawings together
to present to you tonight.
Because the people
that we originally hired were just not capable
of providing it to us.
So
You had a citation, I'm sorry to interject.
Was there a citation issued for the sign?
There was and a fine issued and it was paid.
Okay. That was my next question.
'cause there's an extensive, I don't know why it
was such an extensive
Record, this sign. Well, it took a long
time to get the drawings together.
It was like months and months and months.
And finally we fired the guy
and we got someone else to do it.
So it just took a long time
To get this application. Well there's,
there's recourses
that can be taken against any contractor
that does not fulfill their obligations,
which I'm sure you being an attorney would know that I do.
Uh, and I would advise you, which I guess I'm not supposed
to, but in my opinion, he should pay for any debt
that you inquired because that's his job.
He's a contractor. He's supposed to make sure all his
i's are dotted and his t's are crossed.
I don't wanna see you have to pay for moving a sign over.
So with, with a,
with emotions
and tied into it, I'm probably, I'm going to vote yes
for this project strictly
because of, don't wanna see, you have to go
through the burden of somebody else's mistake.
But I would encourage you to follow through with making him,
contractors need to pay
for when they make mistakes. So that's all.
Mr. Chair, Mr.
I, I think I echo the, the thoughts and,
and comments of my, my colleagues up here.
I will probably vote yes on this request.
Um, I would've really liked an opportunity for the, the city
to get a chance to correct this.
Um, I don't, I don't see an issue allowing it
to stand since it's already there.
Uh, but I think we missed an opportunity to, to fix what,
what's not been conforming Mr.
Mr. Chairman,
Is it Madam Attorney?
Is there some way again, we can add in that if
that sign is ever changed panel, anything's ever done to
that sign again, it has to be brought up to code.
I don't wanna see somebody else come in
that he sells the bar 10 years from now power
and they come in and just put a panel in the car
runs over the pole or something.
Or Right. Whatever reasoning is, it has to be brought up
to code code.
Mr. Did you have,
My suggestion is to limit it to the size
and dimensions that are there.
If that's what you want.
That wouldn't prevent anyone else from changing it,
but it prevent it to make it that standard going forward.
Okay. Makes sense. Okay.
If, if that helps you Madam attorney.
Oh yes. I, I was just gonna, I was reading the,
the non-conforming ordinance.
So, um, I believe if, if the poll ever needed to be changed
or replaced, that would take it out. Mm-hmm.
Right? So, okay. So we don't need
to no draw a long out speech for it.
I believe though there might be an issue
with the sign hanging over the right of way and you guys
and the city doesn't have control over giving permission
over the right of way.
They would need permission from um,
probably Mdot at that point.
That's Beck there. Or Shaner.
Shaner You're talking about the the sidewalk.
Yeah, Sidewalk. They maintain that, the sidewalk.
Yeah. But still,
I thought the city was, thought the city was
responsible for the sidewalk
Road. What road on
I still,
That's a smaller sign.
I would still like to see this phrased as if
that sign is touched in any way replacing the glass,
do doing something else with it.
It has to bring up to the current code.
'cause I don't like the idea of signs hanging over
sidewalks, especially a sign
that's been on a pole for 60 years.
So Mr. Chairman, that would be my suggestion.
Mr. Cliff. So Mr.
Eng, England, if this process had been done correctly in the
first place with a permit being pulled
and we wait on the permit approval
and we wouldn't even be here talking about this today.
You are correct. 'cause it would've been denied.
So I don't really see how putting any kind
of limitations in the motion is gonna change anything
because it purely exists
because somebody didn't do things in a proper
matter and format.
That being said, I really don't have a problem with it,
And that's the whole reason why I was kind
of working my way around the
Edges of it. It's smaller than what
was there already. What
Is, what is The process works right next
time and I yield the floor.
What's the approximate overhang on the sidewalk?
About an inch. Okay.
So because from the picture, it doesn't really
look like it's over the sidewalk at
All. Mr. Chair, you're talking
a a, a length of sidewalk that's,
you know, between Stevens
and Shaner there, it's, I mean, maybe
Foot the right of way actually starts a
foot from the sidewalk.
So it'd be a foot and three inches or so. Yep.
Total into the right of way.
The DOT guidance sign about eight feet away from it is
closer into that easement than that sign overhang.
Okay. Well, I mean I, I'm fine
with leaving the status quo,
but again, if something happens to the sign, it's gonna be,
you know, off the, the right of way there for the easement.
And just make sure the dimensions are read into the
motion for
The correct. You make motion.
I'd like to put a motion forward
if nobody else has anything.
Please do. I'd like to give permission
to retain a nonconforming ground sign
On. Mr. Cliff.
What? Yep, go
Ahead.
So I've actually checked when we couldn't find anything.
Public service director. Dave,
Could I have your, your name
and address for the record? I'm sorry.
Uh, Dave Elli. I'm the public service director. Thank you.
Um, when these guys, we couldn't find anything on paper.
I checked with some old retirees from City Hall.
Dbw is right down the street from here.
That's the, the whole reason the sign was
non-conforming to begin with.
The sign was there before we widened shaner. Okay.
So when we widen shaner, they just sort
of left the sign where it was.
So that's why it's there to begin with. So I
Mean, Shaner Stevens Shaner Shaner.
Okay. That makes good sense. So, I mean,
in the grand scheme of things, it was kind
of our fault why it was non-conforming in the
first place, you know?
Right. Thank you. Thank you.
I'd like to give permission to retain a non-conforming
ground sign within nine feet of the North property line
and with the leading edge
of the sign cabinet extending past the east property line.
Not a detriment to the area.
I would like support. Well, hold on.
I would like to make a, an amendment to that.
A motion to allow that sign to only be
what it currently is and no more.
So what was the dimensions on that sign? 44
By seven.
4 28 Square feet.
28 square feet.
So I'll do it again.
That's retain a non-conforming ground sign.
Is that accurate Steve? Could you also put a
stipulation that if the pole is damaged in any way,
that a replacement has to be outside of the right of way?
Thank you. You're making me work tonight.
I'd get some boulders around that sign
pole if I was the only.
Well, doesn't that go now wait a minute now doesn't
that go back to what I spoke about earlier?
If the pole's damaged
and they have to replace the whole thing,
aren't they gonna have to draw a permit for that anyway?
Yeah, a permit's gonna be required,
but the variance goes with the land.
So what you're granting today would stay with the land
Forever. Mm-hmm.
How are we gonna phrase that Madam Second or Madam Lawyer?
I'm calling mess. He's got,
It has to be brought up to current code
Upon re for any replacement
For any, that's what I've been saying all along
And outside of the right of way.
So, but it has to be brought up to current mm-hmm. Code.
Mm-hmm. That brings in all the other things
that we're addressing today.
Something happens to that sign.
You need to bring it up to code. Yeah,
I Could possibly have
Somebody gimme a thumbs up when I read this thing off.
What does this take? Three,
Take three. Go ahead. Take
Three.
Retain a non-conforming ground sign,
28 square feet within nine feet of the North property line,
and with the leading edge
of the sign cabinet extending past the east property line.
In the case of any need for replacement
of the pole, help me.
It has to be, It must meet current code
ordinance standards.
That's good Support. I understand
That. The motion by
Mr. Cliff, support by Secretary of Jersey
to approve the request is read.
Mr. Cliff? Yes. For the reasons stated in the motion.
Mr. Jersey votes Yes.
For the reasons stated of the motion.
Mr. Englin?
Yes. For the reasons stated of
The motion. Mr. Starch?
Yes. There's a reason stated in the motion.
Mr. Perry? Yes.
For the reason stated in the
Motion. Mr. Lindsay? Yes.
For
The reasons stated in the Motion. Chairman Sia? Yes.
For the reason stated in the motion
the request has been approved.
Thank You. Thank you for your understanding in this.
And really come by for a burger. Come by for a burger.
Thank You. Thank you. Is that a free burger?
I know, I know. Don't say that on the record. Say that.
Good luck. Now we know it's gonna
Be in the headline in the tree.
This brings us to item 11.
It would be Takes
us to item 11, applicant.
DTLR incorporated. Representative Donna Huke.
Common description. 2 6 0 6 9 Hoover
branch has requested permission to install two
two foot six inch by three
by three foot nine and five eights inch.
9.50 square foot wall signs in addition
to the existing three foot by 12 foot.
One eighth inch, 36 square foot wall sign in a shopping
center for a total of 55 square feet of wall signage.
Good evening. Good evening. If
You could start with your name and address for the record.
I'm Donna Hokey with Inner City Neon 2 3 9 2 0.
Amber Warren, Michigan.
Thank you. Please tell us about your request.
So we are requesting, uh,
two additional small signs at the DTLR
store at Hoover 11.
Uh, the mall
or the ordinance only allows one sign per
property per tenant.
Uh, it's my understanding that that space does a allow,
has a variance that allows more than 40 square feet.
So we would not be asking, I believe we would not be asking
for any more square footage, just for two smaller signs
to help show that they are a clothing,
a sports clothing store.
Thank you for those comments. This is a public hearing.
Is there anyone in the audience
who wishes to speak on this item?
Not seeing anyone. I close the public portion of the meeting
and turn it over to the board for discussion.
Uh, Mr. Chair, we have an impact statement from, um,
from the planning director. Um,
If you would just Summarize, summarize it.
It basically says, after reviewing the request issues were
found to impact the abutting and local general public.
Um, so the planning department, um, sees it as impactful
And that's all.
Thank you.
Um, that sheet real quick question to the petitioner.
Um, are we still in the public hearing
Or I've, I've closed the public
Portion. Okay. Um,
ma'am, would you be, would you be willing
to relinquish the variances on the property from
8 26 98, 8 11 93 and 10 25 89?
If we grant the 55 square feet
to clean up the other square footage
that's variance to the property?
So basically we would, we would,
we would remove the variances for the 155.
The, the old is on the property
and the only thing that would be existing on
that property would be the 55.
So it'd go down to the 55 that
Requesting Correct. More
now? Yes. So just try
to clean up the books a little bit
so we don't have 268 square
feet of signage on that building.
Right. Makes sense. On top of your 55. So you're looking at
Over 300. And if they go
out and somebody else wants more,
they can come back and ask
Again. So I, I don't have
a problem with this, this, this project.
Um, you know, it's, it's very minimal.
You're very set back from off of Hoover over there.
Um, but I, I, you know, I was going back over the variances.
I I was hoping that you would be open to, um,
relinquishing those existing variances on the property in
order to, to garner the 55 square feet.
Yes. So I think that's something this
whole board could get behind.
Um, hopefully. Um,
but I'd be in support of, um,
granting you your 55 square feet, um,
in return relinquishing those variances.
So I'll yield the floor.
I did just want to clarify for the record.
I, I thought I heard the petitioner mention
that there was more than 40 square feet
allowed, or more than one sign.
Uh, it does appear that the, as the ordinance is written,
that, uh, that parcel is, is allowed one sign
with just 40 square feet maximum.
But they had the variance for extra,
for more square footage.
They did have, Yes. Right. But only one sign.
So that's why I am here to get a total look.
It was just because you want to have more than one Yes.
Sign. Okay. Just so the record's clear.
No other board members, no other board
members have anything else to say.
I'd like to make a motion. Um, I'd like to make a motion
to grant the petitioner permission to install the two,
two foot six inch by three foot 9 5 8 inch,
9.50 square feet.
Wall signs in addition in additions
to the existing three foot by 12 foot, one eighth inch,
36 square foot wall sign,
and a shopping center for a total of 55 square feet
of wall signage.
And to also relinquish the variances granted on the property
on 8 26 98, 8 11 93
and 10 25 89.
Due to the fact it's not a detriment to the area
and the size and shape of the lot support,
We have a motion by Secretary Jersey.
Support by Mr. Perry to approve. The request is read.
Mr. Jersey votes. Yes. For the reason. State and a motion.
Mr. Perry? Yes. For the reason. State and a motion. Mr.
Starch? Yes. For reason. State the motion Mr. Ling. Yes.
For the resinated. The motion. Mr. Lindsay? Yes.
For the reasonated. The motion.
Mr. Clifft? Yes.
For the reasons stated in the motion. Chairman Aya? Yes.
For the reasons stated in the motion,
your request has been approved. Thank you very
Much. Thank
You, ma'am. Thank you.
This brings us to item 12.
Item 12. Applicant Mohammed Abbu Alro.
I'm sorry if I got that wrong. Good evening.
I'm, I'm, I'm representative to Tom Ross. Tamu.
Common description, 1 5 1 5 0 14 mile.
For instance, requested permission
to erect a new ground sign with the following conditions,
1 22 feet in height from the grade of the beam.
Two setback eight feet, four inches from the north property.
Line three with an eight foot under clearance,
and 4 133 square feet of ground signage.
Good evening. Good evening.
If you could please start with your name and address. Sure.
My name is Moody Naser,
and it's, uh, the address is the 15 1 50 East,
uh, 14 Mile Road.
Thank you. Please tell us about your request.
Uh, we just requesting the vari, we are the sign company
and we're requesting the vari variance
because we need to actually comply with the national tenant
that they have certain requirement for the, uh,
signage and the size of it.
Uh, also this sign, from my understanding also,
it's replacing like other three signs that used
to be scattered.
Uh, so we can, you know, condensing that in one sign.
Uh, also the sign gonna be representing like, kind
of three businesses in the same building,
which is like a liquor store
and convenience store slash gas station and a restaurant.
So to accommodate all of this in one sign
and make it look presentable, uh, I mean,
that's why requesting this variance.
Thank you for those comments. This is a public hearing.
Is there anyone in the audience
who wishes to speak on this item?
Not seeing anyone. I close the public portion of the meeting
and turn it over to Secretary Jersey to read in,
uh, the one comment.
Um, thank you, Mr. Chair.
Um, I have a comment from, uh, Lori Harris, um,
resides at 4 0 4 7 Hillcrest.
Um, she emailed, uh, she emailed saying, um,
despite not being sure what is happening there is quite,
is quite distressing that every guideline
for business signs is being challenged
and requires a variance.
Um, she says, I have no idea
what kind of business this will be.
Um, because there's no backup material and,
and the only pick on lines of a vacant building,
I've attended ZBA meetings
where way too many variances are approved.
The requested height of 22 feet is two feet higher than
allowed according to setback.
The sign needs to be set back, the distance equal
to the height of the sign and the clearance under the
sign needs to be 10 feet.
I recall previous meetings where the sign company says,
this is what the company is doing other places.
I contend that Warren needs to stop giving in
with variances, but instead can ask the com companies
to adapt, adapt to the requirements given other towns
and cities manage to not have two
story signs on every corner.
Laurie Harris,
Thank you.
I now turn it over to the board for discussion. Mr.
Pont, did you have a comment?
Yes. Not to pick on Mr.
Jersey, but it's 22 feet from the grade
of the berm, not the beam.
I'm sorry. So there is a berm there if you've driven
by, I don't know how tall the berm is on there.
So it's to the gray of the beam. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Chairman. Mr. Englin.
But that berm was put in by the construction company
that's developing that lot, correct?
Yes. So how high is that burn? Three feet.
Three feet. Three foot. Four foot.
Three feet. Three foot. Yeah.
And just because you spoke sir,
could you say your name for the record?
My name is Tamers Temu.
1 5 1 5 0 East 14 Mile Road.
Thank you. I'm the property owner.
Okay. So the prop, the berm is three foot high.
They put the berm in there,
so they get the elevation on their sign higher.
So now that sign is actually 25 feet from
grade, right?
Um, take the berm out, let 'em have a 20 foot sign.
And that's what I'm willing to go with
Mr. Angler.
Yes, sir. I believe the berm was at the request
of the planning commission.
Well, then the berm,
they wanted a berm in the front corner there.
Well, then I can't pick on the guy for that. Can I?
No. Just being straightforward. I
Can't pick. Along along
Hayes Road all the way down,
there's a three foot berm along the whole, the,
the whole Hayes Road.
All, all the businesses have three foot
firm in front of them.
And that was on the plans.
That was, um, submitted and approved.
Submit. That was a planning commission's request. Okay.
Now I understand that. Right.
But saying that they got a three foot elevation
and they want to get two more feet above that
than what the zoning is approved.
So it's still in my mind, no matter who's set it up,
is allowing a 25 foot elevation on a sign.
So I would not,
the only thing way I'd prove this is if they brought
that sign, the new structural sign down to 20 feet.
And if you needed to take out one
of these boxes underneath there.
'cause as far as I can see, everything that's in
that building is basically one business.
If you have a gas station and have a party store
that's still one business
and not three separate businesses,
it might be three separate items that they do there,
but it's, in my mind, it's not three separate businesses.
So that's just my opinion on it.
I don't think it should be 22 feet.
I think it should be 20 feet.
And if they need to get the eight foot grade underneath it,
they need to remove one of those panels
that are blacked out on here
that apparently gonna have something written in.
So that's my opinion.
Mr. Mr. Mr. Chair. Mr. Starwood.
I actually just wanted to say I
reiterated and agree with Mr.
England's comments because I, I, my concern is the height
of the sign and I, I would like to see a sign be lower,
how they decide to make it lower, whether it's
by removing one of those items or not.
Because it, I do agree with, even with
what the was read into the record very often sign companies
and individuals say what the national retailers want,
but you find they might want it,
but many other cities all over,
they don't get what they always want.
Go to Troy, you know, so it's, um, they can decide
how they can lower, whether they remove a panel or
however, I, I don't wanna tell 'em how to do it,
but I think the sign needs to be lowered. I do,
I do have a, a kind of a comment here.
I'll ask the petitioner personally.
Um, I, I'm a fan of Monument Signs.
I think they're a more attractive looking sign.
They're a little more sophisticated,
and you kinda have the perfect placement for one.
You have a three foot berm.
Did you give thought to having a, a sign
that goes all the way down to the ground
and, you know, reducing the overhaul height.
It's a much more attractive, uh, looking sign. So,
So this is not something that, you know, this is something
that the national tenant needs and they require.
So, because there's more, um, uh, more businesses,
more than one business.
Sure. Um, they all have to advertise,
they all have to fight in room there.
Sure. But drive up Woodward
or Rochester Road, Birmingham at Bloomfield Hills.
There's, there, they don't have a pole sign like this.
These national brands, they have a a five,
six foot tall monument sign.
That's beautiful. And then it says, call, you know it,
the name of the coffee shop and the bagel place.
And so, um, the national brands can,
can work with you a little bit. I
So what you're, what you're saying is
to make it this way instead of this way.
Well, I'm saying Brit have no space
underneath the sign, have it go Right.
Have a maybe a two or three foot block on the bottom. Oh,
We, we thought that that's a requirement.
They wanted a 10 feet clearance with, um, Steve, Mr.
Han, would You mind they, that that was one
of the requirements that they needed?
It's a requirement,
Both A monument.
Sorry. What kind of, uh, limitations are we working with if,
just based on what the ordinance allows
for a, a monument sign?
For a monument sign, monument sign is allowed
to be five feet tall from gray,
and it must be set back equal to the distance.
Um, so it depends on what, what the height is on,
what the requirements would be.
Um, we also would have the issue with the,
the line of sight.
So we'd have to do that radius calc and everything else.
Okay. If, if they go for a monument sign, it'd have
to be reposted and everything else
because it's different parts
of the ordinance that they would be going
For. Okay. And now when
the monument sign is five feet tall, does
that assume that is, is it five feet plus a,
a, a base on it?
That's a foot or two or?
No, the five feet is from Great.
Okay. So, and usually there's a,
a foot or something on the bottom.
I would say that the board has been consistent in
allowing a six foot or six and a half.
But again, it would have to come before you again.
Okay. Thank you.
I, I guess I'll put it back in the petitioner's court here.
You, you heard that, uh,
there probably isn't enough support here
to get the sign approved.
As you presented it, I heard talk about reducing the height
to 20 feet, um, to see if that would give you enough votes,
or you obviously have the option to, to come back
with a different design at another time, to, um, have a, a,
you know, a different type of sign, a monument sign.
So I'll put it back in your court.
Would you like to, uh, beg a compromise with the type
of sign you presented today?
Or would you like to come back with
something totally different
So that, that, um, I, I'm not sure
what the national tenant is gonna require.
So I'm just the property owner. I'm the developer. Sure.
So I don't know what they're gonna accept or allow,
and I don't want to jeopardize the deal that we have.
We've been working on this deal for almost a year. Okay.
And as, as far as everyone knows that, you know,
we've been in front of the board,
so we've been working on this for a while,
and finally we've got a beautiful building out there. No,
It, it looks very nice.
I just wanna caution you, if, if we do move forward tonight,
it, so far, it sounds like that this item
probably won't pass as it's presented. So, um,
So if, if you are saying
that the maximum height will be 20 feet, isn't
that the reason why we came to four variance?
Well, you came for a, a few reasons.
You came for the height, uh, you came for the setback.
The setback should be the 20 feet from the road.
If the sign's 20 feet high, you're requesting eight feet.
Correct. Uh, the under clearance is eight feet,
which should be 10 feet.
Correct. And the overall square footage of the sign, you're,
you're, you're asking for 75 feet square feet is allowed,
you're asking for 1 33.
So you're here for four items tonight, not just the height.
Correct. We're open to giving you, uh, the three,
we just wanna see the,
the overall height come down two feet.
But
Is, so if we take out the berm underneath the three feet
underneath where the sign is, take that berm out
and start from the grade, like the sidewalk
going up 20 feet, would that be acceptable in leaving? Um,
Well, well, I would've to ask Mr. Eron,
Mr. Chair, I just
wanna give like my comment. I'm sorry.
Um, if I, if I just give my comment on this, when
we have approved some monument signs that are taller,
I mean, I take a look and, you know,
even when people say about national retailers, you know,
there's a monument sign that I remember us approving
that was taller at like 6 96.
And Ryan, it has, it was one of those, I think it was,
I don't remember, I don't remember if it was six
feet or six and a half.
They had had the name of the gas station.
They had the two prices.
They actually fit signs for three of the businesses,
you know, like the, the donut place
and you know, the other stuff that they have there,
all on that monument sign.
And I think that looks a lot better than a pole sign,
pole sign, whether it's 2022 or any of that.
That's just my comments. Sure.
I I, I, I agree.
And I wanna just make sure if we are, first of all,
if we wanna do something with the, the berm.
I don't know if we can, if planning wanted it,
but secondly, the concern is that for safety,
you can't have drop the overall height
of the sign down too low where someone is walking under it
or on a bicycle and they hit their head.
So I wanted to hear what you, what your thoughts were Mr.
Eron about, um,
If they were able to confirm.
I'm unsure on where the planning commission is on the berm.
Um, if the berm was removed,
uh, the variance is still from grade
and it's grade where the sign is perfect.
So if the berm is removed, it would, it would still need,
if they wanted it at 22,
they'd still need the variance from there.
Um, again, I don't know
what the planning commission had and entailed on that,
but I do know it went through there and was approved.
And I know that that's been a common thing now is the berms
in front of corner lots. Okay.
So, Mr. Englin,
I don't think I'd wanna mess with the, uh,
planning department and the way they've got
their berms in that set up.
So I am, I would like to have them,
and I know you're not gonna like this,
but it's gonna work, is go look at the one at 6 96 and Ryan
Yes, I know which one.
You know what we're talking about then. Yeah, Of course.
Yeah. I, so
I know every shopping center in area.
I figured you did, but I wanted to be verify. Yes.
By the way, what national brand are we talking about?
S and GSG. Okay. So it fits everything that's needed.
It's a sign that I think most of the members
of the board would rather see monument signs and pole signs.
We're trying to get away from that antiquated old style
gas station pole signs whenever we can.
And if he wants to re-bring it back, copying the heighten,
everything of that 6 96
and Ryan store, I get a good, strong feeling that'll fly
through fairly easily.
So I understand.
I wa I was there when that place was put put together.
Um, they have actually two signs, uh, one on Ryan, one on,
um, service drive.
Yeah. And, um, there, they're, uh,
you're talking about the gas station, correct?
With the, with with the Dunking donut and the,
and the, um, yeah.
UPS and, uh, oh, 60. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Classic Coney Island.
Yeah. So I understand, uh, the, the, the,
the thing here we have is that we, we need to, um,
get something done over here.
So if the clearance underneath, if we can take
that down from, um, from eight feet to six feet clearance.
And there is no, there is no sidewalk anything near it.
It's, it's eight feet, four inches, or nine feet how long?
Eight feet, four inches, I believe, uh, away on.
And the other, the other sidewalk is 29 feet and
29 points. So
yeah. So from Hayes,
we're talking 29 feet off the corner.
29 point something.
Yeah. 27.9.
27.9 feet from Hayes Road sidewalk.
It's 13 to be, and eight feet four inches from, uh,
14 mile set is back.
So
Mr.
Um, through the chair to the city attorney? Yes.
I believe that with the revised requests
that they're making, I believe it'd have to be reposted
because it's more restrictive than the request
that was made on record.
They're just reducing the height, but
You're reducing the under clearance, which is a minimum
and now it's going lower.
Oh yes. With the six feet. Absolutely.
That would have to be reposted. I
Just want to make sure. Yes.
Everyone was aware. Yes. As I heard
That the request was what,
for eight feet when ordinance is 10?
Right. Okay. Yes. You, you are correct,
Mr. Chairman,
Mr. Anyway,
At this point, the only thing I'm willing to agree
with today is a 20 foot high sign
still keep the eight foot under hang.
And that means they have to eliminate so many square feet
of the signage and their platform.
Uh, I, I still think that, like I said,
with all the other things added to it,
that sign normally is set up to be signage
14 by almost 10 feet.
That's 140 square feet, two-sided.
So that in its own almost 280 square feet of signage.
So the most that I would vote
for today is making the overall sign height 20 feet,
maintaining the eight foot under hang and or Yeah.
Under hang. And then they'll have to
work out whatever square footage they put on the,
the signage inside that area.
So, so I, I have a picture of
what it should look like at the end of the day.
Um, so the clearance here, if we get the eight feet
above the berm and the total is, um, 20 feet
That's correct.
Then, then this will be a little bit smaller.
So maybe we can make these a little bit smaller.
You can do whatever you want in that
area, as far as I'm concerned. Yeah.
Um, as, as far as
That, you know, that's, I get what you're saying.
That's really all we can, are pro.
That's probably the only solution tonight.
If you need to get something passed quickly up.
Anything, any other modifications probably gonna require you
to come back and have a notice go out
to all your neighbors again.
So, um, is that something you can work with?
Um, again, I don't know what they're gonna accept,
you know, so it's, it's really not.
I'm okay with it, but Mr.
I have to make sure they're clear. Mr.
Chairman, Mr. Eng, England don't mean
to interrupt the gentlemen how,
but at this point he's got our feedback on this.
If we postpone this to the next meeting so he can go
to those people and get their feedback on it, as long
as he goes and says, listen, do you wanna sign up?
This is what it's gonna be. Or you don't get one, I,
I guarantee they're gonna change your mind.
I agree. Good idea.
But since you have to follow through with
what you gotta follow to, let's postpone it to next meeting.
That way you don't have to pay for any, uh, refiling
and you know, all the other things.
Right. And then we'll bring it back up at that time.
And the next meeting is, uh, February 8th,
12th. 12th.
Oh, February 12th. Okay. Okay.
I, I think that's good. Is that Yeah, that's
Fine. I mean,
we, we, we are the same company.
We can do anything, but, uh, we contacted the s and g
and that's mainly what the requirement.
So we have to satisfy them as, as, as a client.
Uh, the sign is, is gonna be very safe and sound and,
and statistically it's gonna look beautiful once it's done.
Uh, so we try our best to do that for them, you know?
Great. Thank you. But we can work with any sizes
as long as it's okay with
I'll, Mr. Chairman,
Mr. Englen make
a motion.
Steve, you wanna give me a little direction here?
My suggestion would be if,
if they need someone from the company to make sure
that they're in attendance with them at that meeting
as well, so that if there is some other issues
that they're here as well.
Well, that's a suggestion we can make.
But it's, they, they come before us.
This is what I'm gonna vote on.
Um, and I'm getting the feeling that
that's foot's gonna pass.
So we're gonna give 'em an opportunity to ask and then Sure.
Nobody gets chewed up. Chewed up. Too bad.
We got a whole month. We're, we're gonna, I'd like
to make a motion with the, uh, petitioners granting it
to postpone this till February 12th
to allow the petitioner to have time to speak
with his tenant, potential tenant support
Motion. Have his tenant
here.
It would be beneficial if she was here,
but I don't if he's not here,
you're gonna approve it anyway.
Motion to postpone by Mr. England. Support by Mr.
Noorwood to postpone to February 12th.
12th. 12th. All in favor.
Aye. The item has been postponed to our next meeting.
Thank You. Thank you.
Have a good night. Thank you. Seven
Years. Yeah.
This brings us to item
1313.
That's the
Item 13. Applicant
MD Abdul Hakeem, representative MD Abdul Hakeem.
Common description, 5 3 7 7 12 mile variance has requested
permission to install additional signage as follows.
One is six foot by six foot,
three six square foot wall sign on the east elevation.
Two three foot by nine foot 27 square foot awning
with signage on the east elevation.
Three seven feet, eight inches by
18 feet, eight and a half inches.
143.43 square feet. Color backer panel behind.
Previously approved. 36 square foot sign on the south
elevation for a total of 206 43 square feet of wall signage.
Four 30 inch by 48 inch,
10 square foot presale board with an overall height
of five foot five seven feet, six inches
by five feet, six inches.
41.25 square feet.
Menu board with an overall height of seven feet for a total
of 73.25 square feet of ground signage,
including previously approved 22 square foot
panel on pylon sign.
Good evening. If you could please
start with your name and address. M
Abdul Hakim. 53 77 12.
Thank you. Please tell us about your request.
And I'm Jane Smar
and my address is 46 48 LUTs and Warren.
And I'd like to speak for Hakeem please, or with him.
Um, it's a new restaurant
we've been working on since August.
We have a drive through window.
We have a pile on sign, and then we have a sign in the front
and we're requesting with a sign in the front,
I think we're gonna go to the original size
of 36 square feet for the sign.
There was a backer on there.
We wanna just remove the backer
and just keep the original 36 square feet.
But we need a drive through sign
because no one can order any food.
Um, so we'd like to request that.
And we have a whole side of a wall that's the east side
of the wall that's bare.
And any oncoming traffic.
Can't really see what our restaurant is.
If they're driving down the street, we have a pile on sign
that's at the opposite end of the building.
So we would re requesting the sign to be on the east wall.
And what other sign?
That's a awning. Awning.
Oh, the awning. We just really want that
to say the clearance of the awning
so no one runs it over when they
come into the drive through.
And it could say drive through
or it doesn't have to, we just want the clearance.
Oh, can't hear me. Oh no.
Well, the, the drive through clearance
of the awning is existing.
We wanna just have the,
the height put on there, so that's clear.
So that has to be an additional signage too,
but people need to know what the, the size of that is.
So that's basically it.
So we want the number one, the, the sign on the east wall.
The number two is just the awning that needs
to specify the clearance of the drive through.
And then the number three, uh,
we don't want the background there anymore
'cause it's just, you know, too big.
And we'll just keep the 36 inch
already approved sign on there.
And then number four, it's the presale board
that goes along with the drive through.
And then number five is the drive
through itself window with the speaker.
There's already, we know it was already set up
to have the drive through,
but the previous business,
the previous restaurant did not wanna pay the money,
which is like over 25,000 to get a drive through sign,
which we want to put there in order
for our business to succeed.
The last business had the drive through,
but they did not succeed.
And, and we,
and we want to, so we want to have more signage on the side
with the drive through, with just the extra signage.
Thank you for those comments. This is a public hearing.
Is there anyone in the audience
who wishes to speak on this item?
Not seeing anyone. I close
the public portion of the meeting.
I will turn it over to Secretary Jersey to read, um,
the impact statement
and uh, um, a letter into the record we received.
Thank you Mr. Chair. Um,
from the planning department and, uh, Mr.
Re was the packet.
Um, it says,
after reviewing the request, issues were found
to impact the budding in local
or general public in a nutshell.
And then we have a another comment
on this item from Laurie Harris at 4 0 4 7 Hillcrest Drive.
She says, if the limit for wall signs is 40 square feet
and 36 square feet was already approved,
why are you considering allowing this company
to have over 200 square feet of wall signs
included on two sides of the building?
If this is approved, what would prevent other businesses
from requesting to add additional signs on the
other sides of the building?
It's gotta stop someplace. Lori Harris,
That's all I have. Thank
you. At this point I'll turn it over
to the board for discussion.
I would just like to say, I wanted to clarify the picture
of the front elevation with the red backer.
Did you say that you, you are gonna not
have the red back? Yeah,
We're removing that. It's just
gonna be the original color of the building.
Okay. That's a, it'll
Just be the NYC halal eat sign only.
That's a fantastic idea. 'cause it's obnoxious like that.
Right. So it's just gonna be our beautiful little
sign with the regular wall. Yeah, that
I don't have a, I don't have a problem
with it without that.
Mr. Chairman, Mr. England,
My understanding, and Steve, can you cor help me through
with this is awnings are not considered
signage wording on it.
Awnings with anything on it is considered signage. The
Whole awning, The,
Or the what is written on it is considered signage.
Well, according to definition, it'd be the whole awning
unless you guys specify an area within that awning.
Okay. 'cause we had this come up once before. Yes.
The whole awning, by definition a sign is the,
um, includes the, um,
everything encased.
I can't remember how it is,
but it includes the entire thing by definition.
So if you wanted to limit it to wording on and awning,
because you can have an awning without signage
as well. So if you want to, but
That doesn't have to come in front of us.
If they wanna just put up an awning,
Just an awning would not need to.
Right. So they're actually coming up in front of us
to be able to get those words put on that awning.
Correct. Okay. Now,
And that's where we would measure the whole thing.
Unless you guys specified an area within that awning. Well,
I'm just saying it's kind of a double jeopardy thing.
You can have a six foot awning if
you don't put anything on it.
But if you put a word, one word on it that's this big,
they count the whole six foot.
Right. I'd like to change that to be
How many square feet do you think you're awning
or that word on there?
The drive through where it says drive through? Yeah.
How big would you say that is?
It looks like I can't read it. It's gonna
Be two by two maybe. Yeah,
It's nice. Okay, so four
square feet.
Yeah. It's about, well it's two foot this way.
And I think How tall is the letters? Uh,
It's mention, I think if we gave him four square feet,
that would be plenty.
Oh, that'd be huge. Yeah. Two
By four. Sorry. Two
By four. Two by four.
So it's two by four. That was words. Yeah.
And I agree with you. You can't see the word
drive through there.
Right. And I'd like to see 'em get
something a little bigger than that.
I don't care how big the awning you put up me personally.
It's that I wanna give you, go ahead.
I gotta get me always wanna downsize signs.
And I'm saying there should be a little more signage there.
So I'm willing to say, rephrase this to
where you put the awning.
But I'm gonna wanna see it say three.
You said it was two by four? Mm-hmm. Yes.
So that is, so we say three by four 12 square feet.
There's a two by four, he said two by four. That's eight.
He's eight square feet. So if we make it one, three by four,
make it a little bigger to give him 12 square feet.
So it says drive through.
I know that's usually against what I come up with,
but I try to keep it at eight square feet
because it's, I can't see that
Bed height is of the awning is three feet already.
So three by four is limited it to the center
of the bat way. Yeah. I
Don't know if that's, yeah, I don't wanna see a logo on
One. No,
It's gotta be Smaller.
It's hard to tell then when it's black on black.
'cause that's, those letterings look like they're less than
a foot high long.
I know that. So this here is,
looks like it's only 12 inches, not two foot.
He said two foot
Doesn't, it doesn't show here
because Yeah, we can, it's letter
Two plenty. This
is, again, this is only a foot. It's it's one
By, I mean look at the size of,
I don't think it's two by two.
I think it's smaller. That on the rendering.
That's gotta be Not, I think that sign is one
by three right now.
One foot by three foot.
The letters on it, you go by the nine foot
and down, give four square feet.
So give four square feet. However
It's just one by three.
The text is the, the same width as the drive
through window approximately.
And how, how wide is that? I mean,
Yeah, so I would like to see, uh,
the drive throughs are 24 inches. Three, three
Feet? No, not
really. Yeah, it's two low
Is nine. Okay. So if
we gave him what,
six square feet would be generous?
Six square feet. And then you can figure out the
dimensions and then he can figure out
whatever, whatever wants to do with it.
We get a little bigger open sign on there than what's there.
Just for my own curiosity, Mr.
When we approve a preme board
and a menu board is signage,
I mean just in theory 20 years from now
and that is that signage is allowed on that property.
Could, could the petitioner
or could a new owner put that,
that additional signage on the wall
or put a monument sign on the road? No,
It'd be considered a ground sign.
And with it being with us stating menu board, it has
to stay within that definition of it.
So is it possible that it could be moved
if it's moved slightly?
The location is based on the plans and everything else.
And we would say that if they moved it up to the front
of the street, we would definitely.
Okay. So there a Make 'em come back and
There's a distinction made.
That's, that's all I wanted to know.
I have no problem with, with the,
what we've discussed so far, Mr.
Chairman. And the reason I'm bringing
that up is I don't like the wording saying three foot
by nine foot awning with signage.
Because if they can put signage on the whole awning,
they're we're telling 'em they can put
three foot by nine foot.
Right. 'cause we're not saying
what's allowed in the signage area.
So by us changing that
to be six square feet gives them a bigger than they're
showing me drive through wording
And we're striking And we're,
and we're spelling it out so there's no misunderstanding.
And whoever makes the motion is gonna strike the third
request for the color backer.
Yes. Correct. Um, seven eight.
So how would that be? You just take that off
and just say approve the 36 square foot sign on the
South. No.
Well that's probably already,
You would change the total square footage from my
calculation to 78 square feet.
A 36 sign already approved.
A 36 square foot wall sign
on the east elevation
and the six foot of signage on and awn.
So that comes just, just word it
as these signs are gonna be total of,
What'd you say? The substitute
where the 2 0 6 is? 78.
78. 78 square feet. Excuse me. Mr.
Englin? Yes sir.
Coming up with that 78 that's keeping this sign.
Are you saying he can keep this sign?
No, he's taking all this, this color out.
That color out that color? No,
No, no, no they're not.
Yeah, no. The red backer's on the front is on the front.
Oh,
Okay. It's not this sign.
No. So they're taking
that red backer out on that front sign. Yes.
So the original front sign had the red backer
taking the red backer out.
So, so, but that's 78. It is still coming this sign.
So my question is, is are you saying he can keep that,
that's design or
No? Yeah, that's 36.
So all we're doing is taking out
the ba backer panel.
Why is it approved with the 36 on the sign
and the south elevation?
'cause it's Listed. Well, that's what was previously
Approved. The previous tenant
Already What, what el This doesn't what elevation is
That's the east elevation. Mr. Engler. That's
The east. Yes, this is the
east.
That's a three foot by nine foot awning on the east.
That's Oh yeah. That's a six foot by six foot wall sign.
Correct. Mm-hmm. So yes, if I read this this way,
that would come to 78 square feet according to Steve. Oh
Yes. Oh,
okay.
So do you have any comments you wanna make
On No, I'm just gonna make a comment
because I still vote against that
because I don't think that extra sign on the east
elevation is needed.
The six by six foot sign.
I, I agree with him. And so therefore you
Can't even see that coming up the road
Because none of the other businesses have a sign on
the east elevation.
They, they have the same,
they have the same signage on the south
that all the other tenants have.
I don't think that's six foot by six foot sign.
I think that's a signage.
That's a great, great point. I think the tropical smoothie
just has a drive through thing on the side
similar to what mm-hmm.
I think drive through. I agree with that. Yeah.
Because otherwise I could see the tropical,
why wouldn't Tropical Smoothie then come
and say, well we're on the west elevation,
we wanna have a sign on our west elevation.
And then that just, that's just my opinion. 27,
Mr. Chairman,
Mr. Cliff,
I'm a little confused on the third part of this.
It speaks about a previously approved
36 square foot wall sign.
And if we're eliminating that backer panel,
do we even have to address that?
I don't believe we have to address
anything on the south elevation since
they're removing the So that
Would be totally This,
The south elevation, correct?
Yeah. Item three would be totally stricken.
The 36 square foot would be included in the total though.
Okay. I understand now.
I got lost trying to,
but again, I, I, I kind of side with, with my colleague Mr.
Trovic down there about this six by six on the,
on the east elevation.
Um, that, that, that building sits way,
way back from the highway.
And you'd have to be right at the driveway,
apron headed west
before you'd even have a chance to even see
that sign on that side of the wall.
Plus the tree line there at the bottom of the apron.
I, I, uh, if there was a definitive need,
if it was closer to the roadway where it would actually,
in my opinion, kind of be visible,
I could kind of entertain it.
But the way that building's laid out
and how far back it sits, I, I just don't feel comfortable
Proving That first item on there.
I'll yield.
Let me ask the petitioner, would you be, you've,
you've heard our discussion so far.
Um, it sounds like the majority of us want
that sign on the East elevation removed.
Are you in agreement with that to strike that request?
Or would you like to move forward with the initial
Well we, we really want that sign on the side
because anybody that it's a really big parking lot
and it is away from the road, which is,
isn't an obstruction, I mean of like a big outstanding side.
And I think Tropical Smoothie has a sign on the west side
that they probably didn't even get approved.
Maybe it's just written on the wall over there.
But because the pylon is on the opposite side
of our building, you know, any chance for more exposure with
that little sign, the six by six would really be helpful
to us because the last business didn't even succeed at all.
And we just think that it would really help us.
So thiss in plus number here.
3 6 6.
It's 42. 42 and then
All the back sign should, alright.
Personally I just feel
that keeping the sign along the south elevation,
like we've discussed conforms to the allowable wall signage
and the other businesses in the area.
So, um, that's my position.
But it's, it's gonna be up
to the petitioner whether you wanna, um, you know,
strike that sign or move forward with your initial request.
But, um, well, I don't know.
We can do one thing. We can remove this one,
but we need that, that sign maybe we, we can remove.
Is anyone on this board so far, uh, in favor
of the sign on the east elevation? The
East elevation's the red sign in this one down here.
Okay. They're bouncing around 'cause they're not written on.
It should be written on East. Isn't
There nothing saying, Alright. The East one,
I think what's a bad precedent
to start putting signs on the sides of the building?
Front building is, is going to be 36 square feet.
The writing. And then we're gonna give 'em the ex,
I shouldn't say give 'em, we're gonna vote on all the drive
through signage and we're gonna allow larger drive
through signage on,
Well, they don't have any drive through signage, right?
Uh, menu boards and et
There are menu boards. There
Are currently not.
We're all new. The menu boards don't bother me
because like Mr.
Eron said they're menu boards
and they're not gonna be on the sidewalk one day. You want
Sound out? What I think we're
thinking about, I
Please do this counts
So everybody's on the same page. Can we
Just put our sign on this?
Put this on this one.
Uh, we are thinking about
what we're thinking about up here that we seem
to have consensus on,
but it's, your call is deleting number one.
That is the sign on the east elevation.
That's what we really want though.
Well, But why can't we have it?
I don't, You are way over signage by hundreds of feet.
So we gotta get it back.
Something back into some realm of reasonable,
But we're at like 78 square feet if we keep that sign.
What if we make it a little bit smaller then?
Well, you're at, no, you're not at 78, you're at uh,
42 square feet the way I'm proposing it there.
But we're gonna add on the, um, total for all the signages
that are for your drive through too.
'cause that's considered signage.
I don't really consider the drive
through signage as signage.
All I see is 40 square feet, a lot of wall signage
and we're almost doubling it without the
east elevation sign. I
Think that's one. Okay. I'm,
I'm willing to make,
make a little change at the board is, you know, your sign,
like you're gonna do in the front of the building
where you're just gonna put, since
that's a black background, if you just put up there NYC
holla eats, that's gonna cut
that down considerably
On the east elevation.
Mr. Aland. Well,
Without the Black circle around it.
Yes. Well, I can't tell the Black Circle five.
Oh why I got, I got a black. That's
Minus the six.
Is there a black circle around the east elevation sign?
Or is that just some, yeah.
Is that black circle coming as the six?
It's a box basically.
Is it a, is is the sign backing just red
or is there gonna be black around it too?
Yeah, black. The building's not black.
The building's not black. Why would you want that?
But Whatever the building is like a light brown. Yeah,
White. I don't want,
I, I personally don't wanna see any sign
there, but I we're gonna make a white,
But yeah, it's this color, right?
It's like a sand, sand color.
Look, if, if anything, if I'm feeling a little generous,
so I would be okay with making the,
the sign elevation on the front slightly larger if you would
give up the, the sign on the east elevation.
But I'm not per, personally, I'm not gonna vote
for any wall sign on the east elevation.
I'll vote for the drive through awning
because I think that's important
Made.
Yeah, we already made the front sign though.
So that's just gonna be 36 square feet. Mm-hmm.
But what, what if we made it just smaller, like five by five
or something on the east?
Mr. Chair, I can say no matter what size, size
of the sign, I'm not gonna vote in
favor of a sign on the east.
So That's, I'm, I'm not, I I'm not either, but
I can't, it's actually looking like
in the consensus that if they want
to sign up there, this is not gonna pass.
Right. Or if we've just minus the awning
four square foot and put it toward the wall.
Just something that they, that we could show that.
If I could just add, I mean you've got the various members
of the board, but any sign in the east,
I'm not gonna vote in favor of no matter what size,
even if you said one by one.
So
Yeah, the awning doesn't bother me with the,
the word on it, but I'm not gonna trade that for the,
the elevation on the east wall.
So I'll leave it up to you.
You've heard our comments so far.
Do you wanna strike that sign
or would you like to proceed with your full request?
Right. If you're not gonna
approve it, we'll then strike it.
You'll strike. So we can strike.
We're striking the color background and we're gonna strike.
Uh, that was, I was item one.
Okay. Any other comments or discussion
You'd like to make a motion if there isn't any?
Yes. And help me through this.
'cause I got more scribble on here than I can.
We're gonna strike number one, no longer exist.
We are going to allow
six square feet, a three foot
by nine foot awning with six square feet
of signage on the east elevation.
Right? We're going to
For a total, For a total of
6 42.
42 40.
Yeah, that's what we got here. 42 CPA brand.
Okay, then we're, we're striking three.
So then now it's gonna be for a total of 42 square feet
of wall signage,
But we're only gonna have 36 square feet.
No, normally approved by 40 And
The only square footage approved by city
before, so we got only two.
So we have a 40 square foot or 36.
No, 40 is approved by city for the all businesses.
Right, right. So we got only two.
We Can have six here. 42.
Okay, so then I'm gonna go on
number four is gonna be 36 30 inches
by 48 inches, which is 10 square feet.
Feet. A pre-sale board with an overall height of five feet,
five, seven feet, six inches by five feet, six inches.
41.25 square feet.
Menu board with overall of seven feet for a total
of 73.25 square feet of ground signage, including
is this supposed to, are we supposed to approve this?
Yes. Including previously approved 22 square feet. Mm-hmm.
On the pylon sign due, it's not a detriment to the area.
Support. We have a motion by Mr. England.
Support by Mr. Sitz to approve the request is read.
Mr. Englin? Yes. For the reason. State of the motion. Mr.
Stevi? Yes. For the reason. Made a motion Mr. Perry? Yes.
For the re state of the motion Mr. Lindsay? Yes. For
The reason. State of the motion.
Mr. Clifft? Yes. For the reason stated in the motion. Mr.
Jersey votes Yes. For the reason.
State of the motion. Chairman sofa? Yes.
For the reason stated in the motion,
your modified request has been approved.
This brings us to,
Oh,
Item 15.
Item 15, applicant 10. Warren Property, LLC.
Representative Nathan, a white description 3 8 5 5 10 mile
variance has requested permission
to allow a marijuana business
to operate within 612 feet from the
nearest lot line of a school.
Good evening,
Half of 10.
Warren Property, LLC.
The petitioner, uh, before the board this evening, uh,
we submitted a request for, uh, a variance to allow
a marijuana business to operate
with 600 within 612 feet from
the property line of the school.
Um, I wanted to bring to the board's attention this evening
that 10 Warren property,
when they originally acquired the property in July of 2021,
purchased the property when it was zoned
and for allowable use for that business, uh,
under a previous ordinance that was later amended.
Um, it was the understanding of the owner that the process
of getting the approvals for that,
that caregiver business at the time had been completed.
Or it, there was some form of slight misrepresentation
that was made to the owners.
Uh, they purchased the property
and then began investing in approximately $700,000
in improvements to the building.
Um, one of the unique things about structuring
or re reconditioning a building
and improving the building for use is that business,
our city ordinance, city ordinances with it, with respect
to exterior condition, but also unique uses within the
building when it comes to electrical work.
Uh, when it comes to the layout of the building,
the functionality of the building.
Um, as a result of that
and having learned of the ordinance change that had changed,
the had changed the distance from the building
to the property line of the school, increasing
that distance, um,
and having invested a significant amount
of money into that building.
Now they're stuck with a building essentially
that's not really suitable for sale.
And if it were sold for, uh, sold on the market,
it would be sold significantly less as it was customized for
that particular business.
And therefore, uh, we are
before the board this evening to allow
or to ask permission to allow the business
to operate within 620
or 12 feet from the property line of the school.
I believe the front entrance of the school is around, um,
approximately, according to, to the site plan submitted
to the board is approximately
a distance of,
was it 2,194 feet?
Uh, whereas the nearest property line from the building is
612 feet from the far corner of the building.
Thank you for those comments. This is a public hearing.
Is there anyone in the audience
who would like to speak on this item?
Please approach.
Good evening.
Good evening. My name is Michael Billick.
2 6 3 5 5 Meredith Warren, Michigan.
Thank you, Uh, for this particular property,
this has gone on for a couple years
already about four years.
They've been trying to get a marijuana
variance put in there.
Uh, we've been against it as well
as other people within the area as far as, uh,
what the property, uh, variance is requesting.
He's requesting the, the property to be, uh, going
to 600 feet.
The original ordinance said that it was 1500 feet.
It was changed now just recently to a thousand feet,
and now there's requesting it to be to 600, whatever.
Uh, back then it was denied.
You know, the last few years it has been denied.
The fact that they invested money in it into
that building doesn't matter.
That's their fault. They were acting ahead
of even having the meeting with the, the city on this thing.
They were going ahead of schedule.
They thought they assumed they were gonna get the thing
passed right off the bat, and they didn't.
Right. Now, where we're at with this right now is
that from West View Feet, the West View School,
they're approximately 500 feet, 550 feet
from there, you know,
and that's already, they're still not within their variance
from the Wexford subdivision.
There are approximately 475 feet.
And the vari, there's a variance on being
near subdivision as well.
So, and then the, the problem too is that
there's the issue of parking
and what exactly they're,
if it's gonna be a marijuana manufacturing facility,
then they're gonna have trucks coming in.
And that the building between 38 63
and 38 55 is a private driveway.
And it's, the majority of driveway is 21 feet
for 38 to 63.
Whereas their driveway, it isn't even a driveway.
They only have like eight feet in the rear
and only nine, nine feet in the front.
So their driveway is on the west side
of the building towards, uh, the two buildings.
The next building there, that's the driveway
for their entrance park.
This property supposedly is combined with a lot in the back
and a residential home on Keefer Street.
There's two, the lot is addresses on
Keefer as well as the home.
And the three properties are, is like a combined,
they're showing it as being the combined.
Those three properties don't go under one address.
They're going under three separate address.
Two of them are on Keefer.
The lot, the building is gone on the 10 mile right Now,
we want you to understand is are they gonna
combine all three lots?
How are they gonna get parking into that place?
And how are they gonna get deliveries into that place?
It isn't gonna work, but the main thing they have right now
is you have Wexford subdivision, which is
behind the building and that they're way, they're,
they're not meeting the requirement right there.
So we are, we're just saying that right now.
There's that whole area.
If you go online and you look at it,
the whole area is just a residential area.
Nothing but residential homes around there.
There's fast food places around there.
10 Mile Ryan is a high traffic area,
very high traffic, very busy.
The road, it's just not feasible for that area.
We do feel though two, that not only that,
but the, the, the, the,
the area is more
or less geared towards families in that there's a
Islamic Mosque not far away to as closer in the,
in the school on Ryan Road itself.
Just, uh, just south of R 10 mile
and r there are numerous churches in the area.
It's just all the whole area is
surrounded residential people.
We're against this. We have been in the past
and we are, right now, we're asking the city again
to stand up for at least the people in the area.
And that's all we have to say. Really.
We have the, if you'd like to see this,
this is the distances of the, of the various properties.
And I could give it to you guys. We
Have those. Thank you. We have, we
have 'em in our packets. I think you,
Okay, well then you can see what I'm talking about.
There's a subdivision right behind that property.
And that's, that's Wexford Street right there.
They're too close to it. That's all we got to say.
We hope you see, consider our, what we're telling you.
Thank you for those comments. This is a public hearing.
Is there anyone in the audience
who would like to speak on this item?
We do have, uh, a email that was sent into our office
that we'll read into the record.
Uh, thank you Mr. Chair.
This is again from Lori Harris at 4 0 4 7 Hillcrest Drive.
Um, she says, in regards to item 15,
this item is completely unacceptable.
In my opinion. Our city has done a terrible job
with the marijuana policies, procedure ordinance.
We have left with people who think they can get
what they want or threaten a lawsuit.
If this location is only 600 plus feet away from a school,
they clearly don't meet the thousand
foot, thousand foot requirement.
This must not be approved.
We have had marijuana businesses
that have been regularly out of compliance
and have endangered the workers in the surrounding areas.
Who sends these requests to ZBA?
The planning department approves it.
If they get a variance question mark,
this is backwards and wrong.
If a business wants to be established in our city, they need
to follow our rules, please do not grant this variance.
Um, That's all I have.
That's it.
Thank you for reading that. At this time.
I'll close the public portion of the meeting
and turn it over to the board for discussion.
Mr. Chair, Mr. Neitz,
I just wanted to actually start.
I mean, we have our ordinances and our requirements
and basically, I mean,
our city requires at least a thousand square feet.
This school is, was around 600.
I think that that's that alone, I don't see that as a reason
to actually approve this,
and I would be against it personally.
I would just like to go
through the criteria quickly in my mind.
Uh, the first one, the property cannot be used as zone.
Uh, I, the property can be used for other purposes
with its zoning as, as already, uh, um, designated.
Um, the second one is not self-imposed.
Um, arguably it's, it's, uh, the petitioner is seeking the,
the, a purpose that's not allowed in
that zoning designation.
So that to me, that's, this is a self-imposed issue.
And the others are, um, pretty self-explanatory.
The property, uh, the uniqueness
of the property, I don't find the prop.
Anything, um, particularly unusual
or unique about the property.
Um, and what else?
It's financial, Financial, financial. I yield.
Any other comments from the board,
Mr. Chairman.
So
I've always taken resident input pretty heavy.
When we discuss things in some of these things, will,
um, I'm surrounded by this stuff.
I live in that, I live near that neighborhood as well.
Um, I, I don't think we need to start doing,
and I said it, I said it at this Diaz
before, and I'll say it again.
I'm not gonna sit here
and piecemeal property lines versus ordinance versus
what is where I can't get
behind something like this.
612 foot from school property.
There's also, um, there's also,
there's actually two Islamic centers, um,
relatively close to this, uh, property.
Um, the one, uh, the one there on, uh,
10 Mile Road just slightly east of Ryan,
but there's also one on Ryan Road.
Um, you know, just south of, uh,
of that 612 foot limit on, on the west side of the road.
Um, I,
I don't believe in piecemealing things out.
I think the ordinances were developed
and, uh, I stand with, uh, my colleagues on the,
on the Diaz tonight saying that I can't get
behind something like this.
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Englin,
It's too close to the religious facilities in the area
according to code.
It's too close to residential facilities in the area,
and it's too close to schools.
They get a trifecta for saying no.
So that's my opinion on it.
I I'm just, I'm a bit confused.
What, what are you referring to
with a change in the zoning designation subsequent
to your, to your purchase
At the time of the purchase?
Um, which was when? Yeah.
Which was in 2021
July 5th, 2021.
The previous order had, the previous owner had applied for,
uh, caregiver license.
And within that zoning with respect
to it was our understanding within the,
the previous ordinance that caregiving was allowed
with respect to that facility.
But the application hadn't been, had not been completed
despite 10 warrants, uh, having been rep, it had,
having been represented to them that it had been completed.
And then when the new ordinance passed
that added the thousand dollars
or the, excuse me, the thousand foot
distance from the school, then it rendered Okay.
What their business plan was
To entire. So it was misrepresented
to the seller? Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. Okay.
Well, unfortunately you can't get blood out of a turnip,
but hopefully he can go after the, the seller.
Mr. Eron, is there anything you'd like to add?
Um, the ordinance
for the thousand went into effect on
April 27th, 2021.
Uh, which would've also been prior to the sale date. Right.
The ordinance that was allowing it at 500 from
uh, schools was only the caregiver.
It wasn't any of the medical
or the adult use either at that time.
That wasn't even allowed at that time, so, okay.
It was only the caregiver that was allowed at that time,
and it was 500 prior to April 27th. 21.
Okay. Thank you for clarifying.
Any other comments from the board?
I'd like to make a motion. Please do.
Lemme get a final, gimme your paperwork for a second. I
What do you mean?
All five?
If you're going to, uh, whoever makes the motion,
if it is going to be a motion to deny,
if we can cover the five criteria, oh, criteria.
I'll give this to Mr. Wrangler.
Let me have the five criteria. Let me read it.
I'd like to make a motion
to deny allowing a marijuana business to operate
within 612 feet from the near lot line of a school.
And it would be for satisfy motions
and improve were made in a property to enable a property
to function and operate consistent
with the proposed intent used as a marijuana business.
Are these the ones you want me to read?
No, just the headings. Oh, the five criteria there. Okay.
Criteria property not to be used as zone one.
Not self imposed. Self-imposed.
Property's not unique and it's a detriment to the area
and it doesn't follow the guidelines set forth by
our city fathers on what is allowed
with a marijuana growing facility.
Support and not necessary. And not necessary support.
We have a motion to deny by Mr. Englin. Support by Mr.
Cliff. A Yes. Vote is to deny Mr.
Englin Yes. To deny Mr. Cliff? Yes. To deny Mr. Perry?
Yes. To deny Mr. Lindsay
Yes. To deny
Mr. Novi?
Yes. To deny Mr. Jersey votes? Yes. To deny Chairman
Aya? Yes. To deny
for the reason and the motion.
Unfortunately, your request has been denied.
Thank you. Thank you.
This brings us back to item seven that we're recalling
as item 15 A or
16. Yeah, 16.
16
Is a petitioner present for item seven.
Mr. Watcher Hunt. Did we get any contact in your office
or through Ms. Jones?
I have not heard anything.
Um, I know that the item that was
to be presented was basically
because one of the fire marshal's approval.
I know planning reached out.
I don't know if we got any notice
Officially. We, we did
get an notice from, um, yeah,
from the fire marshal saying that he went to the property,
inspected it and everything was akay
by their standards. Pretty much so.
And, and I don't know if he talked to the gentleman
and he assumed he didn't have to come
because of that, but I,
I maybe, but my, my philosophy is no call,
no show, no variance. But
That's fine. Um,
I guess as A, my suggestion would be to postpone
and make sure he knows he should be here.
That would be the nice thing to do.
Um, would someone like make a motion? Motion to table the we
Motion to table till February 12th. 12th?
Yep. Okay. Uh, we had a motion by Mr.
Cliff, support by Secretary Jersey to table item, uh,
now 16.
16 to February 12th. 12th. 12th.
All in favor? Aye. Aye.
Item 15 has 15 or 16? 16.
Item 16 has been tabled to February 12th.
This brings us to put him
To the nay.
This brings us to new business.
Any new business to report? None here.
Motion to adjourn. Motion
To Ajour. Adjourn. Motion
by Mr. Cliff, support by Secretary Jersey.
Is there any way to come back up to the
Stairs about my awning at the
Restaurant? Do you have a, do you have a,
a question about it?
Just wondered, since we didn't get the east sign
and we have just six square feet on the awning,
could we get a little extra square feet on the awning?
Maybe put a logo with it, just a logo on the,
Uh, if there was someone that wanted to open it up for,
for a motion to reconsider, I, I personally wouldn't
increase, wouldn't be in favor
of increasing anything on the awning.
Is would anyone care to? No. No.
I'm sorry. Unfortunately, it's been finalized.
Okay. Well, I had to ask. Thank you. Okay.
All right. Thanks. Meeting adjourn 9 39.