WEBVTT

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So I'd like to call to order a regular meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals for

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Wednesday, May 13th at 7:00 PM.

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Please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance.

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I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,

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and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God,

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indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

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Roll call.

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Mr. Safaya.

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Present.

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Mr. Green.

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Present.

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Mr. Perry.

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Present.

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Mr. Lindsay.

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Present.

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Mr. Watts.

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Present.

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Mr. Assessor.

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Present.

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Mr. Jersey's present. Chairman Stovitch?

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Present.

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Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a motion to excuse Mr. Cliff.

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Motion to excuse.

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We have a motion by Mr. Jersey, support by Mr.

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Green to approve Mr.

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Cliff's absence today. All in favor?

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Aye.

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Anybody opposed?

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That's approved. Takes us to adoption of the agenda.

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So moved.

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Support.

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Mr. Chair, I'd like to make the following changes to

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the agenda. I'd like to move item six

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to the May 27th meeting,

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item 10 to the May 27th meeting, and remove item

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14 completely from the agenda, and leave the rest as written.

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Support.

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So we have a motion by Mr. Jersey, support by Mr.

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Lindsay, to approve the agenda with those changes made.

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All in favor?

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Aye.

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Anybody opposed?

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So, any

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individuals for

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item six, which is to I Drive, item 10, which

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was Susan Elliott on Christine Street?

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I think it was Garrick's.

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Okay. It won't be re-posted, so this is the only notification

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for those meetings.

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Before we move on past this, we are one board member

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short today,

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and there are two use variances on the agenda still.

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So a use variance requires six yes votes

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as opposed to the regular five, which all other

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requests need. So I did want to offer-

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12 and 13

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... to convert petitioners for items 12 and 13, since they are use

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variances, whether they want it to be rescheduled or not.

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Item 12 was applicant Steven Paris on Sunset,

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and item 13 is

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Ferris Golan on Shaner.

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Do you want to still proceed even though we're down one?

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Yeah.

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Okay. And you are...

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Ferris Golan.

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Okay.

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And is Steven Paris here?

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Do you still want to proceed?

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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No changes.

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Okay.

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And we can move on to approval of the minutes.

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Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a motion to approve

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the regular meeting minutes of February 11th, 2026, March 11th,

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2026, and postpone the

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approval of the minutes for April 8th, 2026 and April

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22nd, 2026 to the May 27th meeting.

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Support.

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We have a motion by Mr. Jersey, support by Mr.

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Assessor, to approve the minutes of February 11th and March

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11th, and to postpone the two April

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minutes to the May 27th meeting. All in favor?

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Aye.

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Anybody opposed? Okay. Minutes are approved.

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Takes us to item number seven.

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Item seven. Applicant, Jonathan Salaka.

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Representative, Jonathan Salaka. Common description, 24800 Hoover.

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Variance is requested permission to, one, conduct a temporary outdoor retail sales

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operation without a permanent building.

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Two, conduct a temporary outdoor sales operation in a 30 foot by

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30 foot, 900 square foot tent in an area designated for parking from

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9:00 AM to 9:00 PM, June 21st, 2026 through July

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6th, 2026.

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Good evening. Karen Bertie on behalf of Jonathan Salaka, who's to my

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left.

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My address is 28225 Mound Road, Warren, Michigan

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48092.

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At the last meeting, I had quite a few handouts on the table for you.

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I hope that you brought those. But

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board member Mr. Sophia wasn't here last time, so I brought the

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documents for him.

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So my client is proposing a fireworks tent from June 21st,

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2026 through 7/6/2026 from 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM.

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This tent is located at 24800 Hoover Road.

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This is the exact same site, the exact same site plan, approved by the

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city for many, many years. It was

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previously brought by my

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client's uncle, Pat Salaka, who sadly passed away.

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My client had worked with Pat Salaka doing

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the fireworks for many, many years.

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The petitioner's family does have a brick-and-mortar business in

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Warren called Nick's Chips. It's located at

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21001 Groesbeck in Warren. And I

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showed you by Googling it that they in fact have

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this address in Warren.

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The shopping center has one store in it, the Value Fresh

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Marketplace. They do not sell fireworks, and they welcome Mr.

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Salaka doing itLike I said, they've been doing

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it there for years.

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I would

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say that I think it's rather important that we

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have these opportunities for these fireworks tents in the City of Warren

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because I think the residents are better served when there are

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providers where there's competition for prices.

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If we limit, if you will,

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the sale of fireworks only from

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brick and mortar stores, I think you very much limit the competition,

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and I think at that point you end up with a situation where the residents suffer

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because there's not competition for prices.

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As stated, the tent is a 30 by 30 tent.

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It is secured by eight water

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barrels.

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There are two at each corner.

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Each water barrel weighs 458 pounds each.

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It's a 55-gallon water barrel. A gallon of water weighs

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8.34 pounds. If you take 8.34

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pounds by 55, that's 458.7 pounds.

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If you take that and multiply it by eight, that's

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3,664 pounds holding down that tent.

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But that's not all that's holding down that tent.

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In addition to that, there

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are 42-inch steel stakes with

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three-quarters inch ropes. And

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those stakes

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hold the tent down in addition to the water.

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If we were to use concrete blocks, they're 400 pounds each.

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The water barrel is 58 more pounds each.

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This has been the way that the Salakas have secured this tent at

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this location for years and years and years and

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have never had an incident. I believe that that is a secure

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way to

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keep the tent

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secured.

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Now, I'm going to be a little more thorough tonight because I've made presentations

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about fireworks in the past, and many of the things that I've

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said, some people have indicated that they want to see some documents.

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They want to see backup for it. So I took my time this time, and

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I put together the backup documentation for things that I've been

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telling you for quite some time about fireworks tents.

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If you guys can all look at this packet,

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this is the one that has my client's fireworks certificate from the

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state as the first page.

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On the second page,

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I took a screenshot of his

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application to the state.

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To apply for this license, he had to provide

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a site plan that's reviewed by the Fire Bureau in Lansing.

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He had to provide a floor plan that gets reviewed by the Fire

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Bureau in Lansing, and that is to make sure it's in compliance

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with all of the

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rules that are contained within the Fireworks Safety Act.

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Once that's approved, he has to provide a sales tax license.

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He has to show the state that he has the

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ability to collect the sales tax, 6% to the State

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of Michigan.

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He also

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has to provide a bond, a $5,000 bond.

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The $5,000 bond is to ensure that he follows the Fire

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Safety Works Act. If he fails to comply in any way with the

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Fireworks Safety Act, he doesn't pay his sales tax, he doesn't pay

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his Fire

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Works Safety fee, which is an additional

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6%. If he gets a citation

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by the Fire Bureau,

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anything that he doesn't do to comply by, and there's a

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fine in the Fireworks Safety Act, this bond is to ensure payment to

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the state.

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So if you turn the next page,

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we've got the traveler's bond for $5,000.

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The next

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few pages, you get to the floor plan of the tent,

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the inside floor plan. And as I've instructed in the past,

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there are rules. Where are the fire

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extinguishers... Thank you. I'm sorry. Where are the fire extinguishers located?

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How wide are the aisle ways? How big are the exits?

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How many exits are there? These are all just examples of things that get looked

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at on the floor plan.

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Then there's a certificate of liability insurance.

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You have to buy a million-dollar policy to get a

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fireworks certificate from the State of Michigan.

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The million-dollar policy, if you'll look at the bottom,

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it says, "What additional insureds do you want?" My client

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listed AJ Fireworks. He listed himself.

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He listed the owner of the property.

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He listed the company that owns the property.

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He listed Value Fresh Market, but he also listed City of

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Warren, Michigan.

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So there's a million-dollar policy covering

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any liability that could happen at that site.

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And not only does the owner, everybody have coverage,

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also the City of Warren has coverage.

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Now, with regard to

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the other items that I put in the packet,

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we have

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the Fireworks Safety Act,

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and I provided this

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to you, and I want to point out a couple

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things in thatAnd I'm going to try to be brief, but I want to show

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that these are the things that I've been saying, and where did I get these

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things? I didn't just make them up.

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They came from the law, and they came from how it's practiced

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over the years. On page four,

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it talks about what you have to do to get a license, and it's all the things I just

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talked about.

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That's in the Safety Act itself.

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Then in the act,

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it talks about the fireworks safety fee.

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Let me talk about that for a moment.

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The fireworks safety fee is not the sales

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tax. If you sell fireworks, you have to pay to the state of Michigan

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6% sales tax. Anything, it's a good.

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It's sold, 6% sales tax. In addition, there's an

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additional 6% fire safety fee.

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That fire safety fee goes to Lansing.

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It goes into their fireman's fund, and it is

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distributed by their council for the

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instruction and training of all firemen within the

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state of Michigan. Now, how can I say that?

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On the LARA webpage, this is another document that I put at your table,

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it says specifically, "All fees generated as part of this

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program are allocated to support the operation of the

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program and the training of the state's approximate 29,000 firefighters."

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I have several firefighter friends who have indicated to

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me that they have been able to take advantage

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of

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training that's offered at the state that the city used to pay

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for and does not pay for now. That

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there's been more money available for training in this state since the

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beginning of fireworks than there was prior.

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And I'll also show you in the law where it specifically

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says where the money goes and how it's allocated.

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On page nine,

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a person who fails to remit the fireworks safety fees as

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described,

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the first violation is $5,000 if you don't pay it.

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Second violation is $20,000. A third violation is

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$40,000, and you're not ever getting a license again.

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Now, that's on page nine of the act.

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Then I'm going to read to you exactly what it says on page 10.

261
00:14:42.389 --> 00:14:46.340
"100% of the money received from the fireworks safety fees under Section

262
00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:49.940
VIII to be used for the training of firefighters under the direction and

263
00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:53.440
approval of the Firefighters Training Council established under the

264
00:14:53.540 --> 00:14:55.400
Firefighters Training Council Act."

265
00:14:56.380 --> 00:15:00.320
So that's 100% of the safety fee goes for that.

266
00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:06.040
Then I've talked about in the past how obviously you can't sell

267
00:15:06.100 --> 00:15:07.200
fireworks to a minor.

268
00:15:08.180 --> 00:15:11.840
Well, that's contained on page 10 of the act.

269
00:15:13.460 --> 00:15:16.820
And I've explained to you that there's enforcement,

270
00:15:16.830 --> 00:15:20.630
that not only can our own police in the city of Warren go and

271
00:15:21.520 --> 00:15:25.300
make sure and spot-check, if you will, that fireworks aren't being

272
00:15:25.420 --> 00:15:29.180
sold to minors, but in addition to that, the state actually sends

273
00:15:29.300 --> 00:15:33.220
people in to try to buy fireworks. They use minors to try to

274
00:15:33.280 --> 00:15:36.600
accomplish that. And the first fine is

275
00:15:36.610 --> 00:15:39.820
$1,000. Every fine thereafter is

276
00:15:39.900 --> 00:15:43.500
$2,500. And if you get a second fine, your

277
00:15:43.540 --> 00:15:44.660
license is suspended.

278
00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:49.200
So you're not going to be selling fireworks for long if you sell to minors.

279
00:15:55.560 --> 00:15:55.920
Then

280
00:15:57.260 --> 00:16:00.880
I had talked about in the past that the fire

281
00:16:00.920 --> 00:16:04.820
marshal or his designee can issue citations, and the

282
00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:07.900
authority for that is page 13 of the Fireworks Act.

283
00:16:08.740 --> 00:16:09.020
So

284
00:16:09.820 --> 00:16:12.000
they have authority to issue citations.

285
00:16:14.190 --> 00:16:17.800
They also have authority on page 14 to confiscate

286
00:16:17.900 --> 00:16:21.120
fireworks. Illegal fireworks, they can confiscate them.

287
00:16:28.380 --> 00:16:29.910
You also can't get a fireworks

288
00:16:30.180 --> 00:16:34.080
certificate for sale

289
00:16:34.800 --> 00:16:38.700
if you have ever been convicted of a felony involving theft, fraud,

290
00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:39.500
or arson.

291
00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:46.330
And then lastly in the act, they talk about the fact that

292
00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:50.500
the department shall, not can, but shall

293
00:16:50.540 --> 00:16:54.040
promulgate rules under this act,

294
00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:56.180
and those rules are law.

295
00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.100
So I gave you a copy of those rules

296
00:17:00.940 --> 00:17:02.950
because I wanted to make sure that you had them.

297
00:17:04.120 --> 00:17:07.370
Very specifically, I'm not going to go through each thing,

298
00:17:08.020 --> 00:17:11.901
but I want to indicate to you that on page three,

299
00:17:12.901 --> 00:17:16.300
it talks about the fact that the State

300
00:17:16.620 --> 00:17:19.600
Fire Bureau must inspect the site.

301
00:17:20.560 --> 00:17:22.100
That's contained within the rules.

302
00:17:26.360 --> 00:17:29.740
It's also important to note on page four, five,

303
00:17:32.080 --> 00:17:32.880
and six,

304
00:17:34.280 --> 00:17:35.000
these are

305
00:17:37.420 --> 00:17:38.420
all of the

306
00:17:39.860 --> 00:17:42.920
standards, NFPA this, NFPA that,

307
00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:48.060
all of the standards that have to be followed to be in compliance.

308
00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:49.240
And these

309
00:17:50.360 --> 00:17:50.880
are not

310
00:17:51.800 --> 00:17:55.680
just a few standards. Like I said, it takes two and a half

311
00:17:55.800 --> 00:17:58.500
pages to put them.

312
00:18:00.900 --> 00:18:04.620
The rest of it, I don't want to sit here and read you the act,

313
00:18:05.420 --> 00:18:09.400
but I want you to know these further support

314
00:18:09.820 --> 00:18:13.690
the things that I've been sayingall along that this is not

315
00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:17.440
a fly-by-night operation. People who do the firework

316
00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:21.440
sales are not fly by night. The requirements

317
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.520
that they have to follow are

318
00:18:24.500 --> 00:18:25.620
quite extensive,

319
00:18:26.420 --> 00:18:30.340
and the penalties for not complying are extensive,

320
00:18:31.040 --> 00:18:34.620
and they need to be sharp and operate a very clean

321
00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.660
operation, or they're not going to be in business very long.

322
00:18:37.860 --> 00:18:41.670
I have seen people who have not complied with the Fireworks Safety

323
00:18:41.860 --> 00:18:45.820
Act or the rules, and they get put out of business very

324
00:18:45.940 --> 00:18:46.340
quickly

325
00:18:47.320 --> 00:18:48.200
because they can't

326
00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:53.380
seem to be in compliance as they should.

327
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:56.840
So

328
00:18:58.060 --> 00:19:01.440
why do I make sure that I explain all of that?

329
00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:05.420
It's because we have a track record here with the Selaca

330
00:19:05.500 --> 00:19:08.380
family. They have been in compliance.

331
00:19:08.420 --> 00:19:12.300
They do not get citations. They've never been cited,

332
00:19:12.780 --> 00:19:16.500
ever, for failure to comply with what they're

333
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:17.400
supposed to do.

334
00:19:19.660 --> 00:19:22.800
And last year, when my client put up his tent,

335
00:19:23.620 --> 00:19:25.140
my client was inspected by the

336
00:19:26.540 --> 00:19:30.440
state fire inspector, Tom Lyon, L-Y-O-N.

337
00:19:31.660 --> 00:19:35.160
Two Warren fire officials came out while he was open two separate

338
00:19:35.170 --> 00:19:35.660
times.

339
00:19:36.780 --> 00:19:40.570
He can't remember the name, but two Warren fire officials came out,

340
00:19:41.040 --> 00:19:43.890
and in fact, spent a great deal of time there

341
00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:50.150
on two occasions. The electrical inspector from the city

342
00:19:50.360 --> 00:19:51.960
also came out and inspected.

343
00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:56.140
So as I have said in the past,

344
00:19:57.140 --> 00:20:00.380
anybody from the City of Warren who comes out that is an official,

345
00:20:02.300 --> 00:20:03.290
we will honor them

346
00:20:04.620 --> 00:20:06.240
looking at what they need to look at,

347
00:20:07.060 --> 00:20:10.940
having free access to what they need to have free access to because we're

348
00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:13.900
running a tight ship. We're running a compliant ship.

349
00:20:14.300 --> 00:20:17.540
So any inspector coming out, we don't have any problem with.

350
00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:21.240
We're glad to have them come, and they are welcome.

351
00:20:21.860 --> 00:20:23.620
So in short-

352
00:20:23.650 --> 00:20:24.700
Are you using your item?

353
00:20:24.770 --> 00:20:25.850
... I will say that

354
00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:31.540
not only is the fire bureau from Lansing

355
00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:36.620
making checks, but definitely in this case, we also have the City of Warren

356
00:20:37.420 --> 00:20:39.200
making checks, and

357
00:20:40.060 --> 00:20:44.030
I believe that my client runs a very safe and compliant operation,

358
00:20:44.460 --> 00:20:48.260
and I would ask you to please approve his petition

359
00:20:48.320 --> 00:20:48.960
here tonight.

360
00:20:50.760 --> 00:20:53.240
Thank you, Ms. Birdie. This is a public hearing.

361
00:20:53.280 --> 00:20:55.710
Is there any audience wishing to speak on this item?

362
00:20:57.180 --> 00:21:00.860
Not seeing any, I close the public portion of the meeting and turn it over to the

363
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.140
board for questions and discussion.

364
00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:09.000
Mr. Chairman?

365
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:10.789
Yes, Mr. Stefani?

366
00:21:11.320 --> 00:21:15.260
I appreciated the presentation tonight and the extra backup material.

367
00:21:15.760 --> 00:21:17.620
I'm familiar with that parking lot.

368
00:21:17.740 --> 00:21:21.590
I think it's a spacious parking lot, and I personally don't have a problem or

369
00:21:21.780 --> 00:21:25.120
see any issues for this short period of time.

370
00:21:27.600 --> 00:21:28.020
Mr. Chair?

371
00:21:28.560 --> 00:21:29.400
Yes, Mr. Lindsay.

372
00:21:31.120 --> 00:21:34.000
So thank you for the presentation.

373
00:21:34.180 --> 00:21:37.900
I'm not quite sure what

374
00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:41.680
firefighter training and sales tax have to do with this variance

375
00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:45.620
request. But the way that I view this, and

376
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:48.060
honestly all of these firework stands,

377
00:21:49.360 --> 00:21:52.870
our job here as a ZBA is to determine if a practical

378
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:56.260
difficulty to comply with the ordinance has been met.

379
00:21:57.530 --> 00:22:01.020
I look at this, I don't think a practical difficulty has been met.

380
00:22:02.420 --> 00:22:05.960
The presentation that you've given doesn't seem that there's any

381
00:22:06.020 --> 00:22:09.960
unreasonable impact or burden to maintain compliance with the

382
00:22:09.980 --> 00:22:10.940
property as it is.

383
00:22:11.860 --> 00:22:14.880
I don't see that there's anything unique about this property.

384
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:18.370
I believe that the firework stands, how I've seen them in this city, are a

385
00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:19.380
detriment to the area,

386
00:22:20.260 --> 00:22:22.360
and this is clearly economically driven.

387
00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:26.140
So I don't see how I could vote yes on this, so I'm going to be a no vote.

388
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:28.229
May I say that that is not the-

389
00:22:28.280 --> 00:22:29.720
I didn't have a question

390
00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:29.929
... standard of review

391
00:22:30.840 --> 00:22:33.080
for tents. It's not the standard.

392
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:41.040
Any other questions, discussion, or any motions, or...?

393
00:22:41.620 --> 00:22:42.220
I have a comment.

394
00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:43.119
Yes, Mr. Ding.

395
00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:46.000
So I'm always curious when items like this come up,

396
00:22:47.020 --> 00:22:47.360
and

397
00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:50.660
they're specific to

398
00:22:51.820 --> 00:22:55.720
the sale of fireworks. But we have numerous other items

399
00:22:55.760 --> 00:22:57.280
that come in front of us that are approved.

400
00:22:58.560 --> 00:22:59.680
Flower sales,

401
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:02.320
there's a whole bunch of them that we do.

402
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.000
So I think if we

403
00:23:06.220 --> 00:23:06.420
are

404
00:23:07.300 --> 00:23:10.880
strictly going with the practical difficulty standard,

405
00:23:10.940 --> 00:23:12.880
I think it can be read either way.

406
00:23:13.900 --> 00:23:13.980
And

407
00:23:14.860 --> 00:23:18.720
we've had this discussion about brick-and-mortar and all these other different

408
00:23:18.730 --> 00:23:19.100
things.

409
00:23:21.580 --> 00:23:25.280
We need to have the discussion on everything if we're going to do that, or it

410
00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:27.460
doesn't look like we're being fair across the board.

411
00:23:27.760 --> 00:23:31.320
That's my opinion, and I will vote yes on this to

412
00:23:31.340 --> 00:23:31.760
approve.

413
00:23:34.300 --> 00:23:35.059
Mr. Chairman?

414
00:23:35.120 --> 00:23:36.120
Yes, Mr. Stefani.

415
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:38.520
If there's no other comments, I'd like to make a motion.

416
00:23:38.580 --> 00:23:41.400
I've approved the other flower stands in town.

417
00:23:42.360 --> 00:23:46.320
I personally like, as a Warren resident, being able to go to Warren businesses

418
00:23:46.380 --> 00:23:49.300
for things than going to the outside community.

419
00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:54.000
With that, I'd like to make a motion to grant permission to conduct a temporary

420
00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:57.920
outdoor retail sales operation without a permanent building, to

421
00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:01.760
conduct a temporary outdoor sales operation in a 30 by 30,

422
00:24:02.040 --> 00:24:05.970
900 square foot tent in an area designated for parking from 9:00

423
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:09.540
AM to 9:00 PM, June 21st, 2026,

424
00:24:09.940 --> 00:24:12.020
through July 6th, 2026-

425
00:24:12.050 --> 00:24:12.820
It's four

426
00:24:12.830 --> 00:24:14.700
... because it's not a detriment to the area

427
00:24:16.936 --> 00:24:19.476
So we have a motion by Mr. Safaya, support by Mr.

428
00:24:19.556 --> 00:24:23.536
Perry, to approve the request for the reason stated. Mr. Safaya?

429
00:24:23.736 --> 00:24:25.996
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion. Mr. Perry?

430
00:24:26.356 --> 00:24:27.786
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

431
00:24:28.036 --> 00:24:28.656
Mr. Assessor?

432
00:24:29.216 --> 00:24:30.696
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

433
00:24:30.876 --> 00:24:31.436
Mr. Watts?

434
00:24:31.856 --> 00:24:33.126
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

435
00:24:33.296 --> 00:24:33.736
Mr. Green?

436
00:24:33.916 --> 00:24:35.246
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

437
00:24:35.546 --> 00:24:36.136
Mr. Lindsay?

438
00:24:36.416 --> 00:24:38.166
I vote no. I think it's economic.

439
00:24:39.316 --> 00:24:41.776
Mr. Jerseyll's votes no. I believe it's a detriment to the area.

440
00:24:41.916 --> 00:24:42.816
Chairman Ostrovich?

441
00:24:43.176 --> 00:24:46.856
Yes. So your request has been approved, Ms. Bergen.

442
00:24:47.316 --> 00:24:48.856
Thank you. Have a good evening.

443
00:24:58.936 --> 00:24:59.736
Takes us to Item A.

444
00:25:01.656 --> 00:25:05.136
Applicant, Darren and Michelle Moore. Representative, Darren and Michelle Moore.

445
00:25:05.256 --> 00:25:08.936
Common description, 32206 Newcastle.

446
00:25:09.516 --> 00:25:12.726
Variance has requested permission to retain widened portion of the driveway from

447
00:25:12.756 --> 00:25:16.496
the south front corner of the garage, 10 feet towards the south property

448
00:25:16.536 --> 00:25:16.776
line.

449
00:25:19.276 --> 00:25:19.776
Is the...

450
00:25:24.636 --> 00:25:26.856
I'm really struggling. At least I am.

451
00:25:26.896 --> 00:25:29.076
I'm really struggling to hear everybody.

452
00:25:29.096 --> 00:25:31.346
If you could maybe talk into the microphone more?

453
00:25:31.976 --> 00:25:33.076
Is that better? There we go.

454
00:25:33.576 --> 00:25:33.806
Thank you.

455
00:25:33.806 --> 00:25:34.616
Thank you. Sorry about that.

456
00:25:35.416 --> 00:25:37.216
I figure if I'm having to come out the building, you are.

457
00:25:37.276 --> 00:25:38.476
I appreciate that. Thank you, sir.

458
00:25:40.416 --> 00:25:44.056
And if you could start with your name and address for the record, and then your

459
00:25:44.096 --> 00:25:44.616
request.

460
00:25:44.916 --> 00:25:48.876
Hi, I'm Michelle Moore. I live at 32206 Newcastle Drive, Warren,

461
00:25:48.936 --> 00:25:50.396
Michigan, 48093.

462
00:25:51.956 --> 00:25:54.836
I'm Darren Moore. I also live at the same address.

463
00:25:59.136 --> 00:26:01.476
And if you want to explain your request today?

464
00:26:01.896 --> 00:26:05.656
Yes. We came here today for a permission to keep our

465
00:26:05.696 --> 00:26:07.636
retained widened portion of our driveway.

466
00:26:08.256 --> 00:26:11.776
11 years ago, we hired a company, a licensed

467
00:26:11.836 --> 00:26:15.636
contractor, and came down to the city with us to go over a

468
00:26:15.696 --> 00:26:19.656
plan to re-pour the cement

469
00:26:19.696 --> 00:26:23.396
in our garage, our driveway, and the city sidewalk

470
00:26:23.836 --> 00:26:25.015
due to cracks.

471
00:26:26.676 --> 00:26:29.996
When we came to the city, we were coming for permits.

472
00:26:30.536 --> 00:26:34.476
Well, first we

473
00:26:34.516 --> 00:26:38.156
went over the whole entire project, and the city told us we only needed a permit

474
00:26:38.196 --> 00:26:41.296
for our garage, which we received the permit.

475
00:26:42.876 --> 00:26:46.076
Then we had the company start our project.

476
00:26:46.196 --> 00:26:46.506
First, they

477
00:26:49.296 --> 00:26:53.276
tore out the cement, put the bordering in, had to have a city inspector come out to

478
00:26:53.316 --> 00:26:57.276
okay them to pour. The city inspector, this was 11

479
00:26:57.296 --> 00:26:58.196
years ago, came out,

480
00:26:59.616 --> 00:27:03.276
looked at the city sidewalk, looked at the driveway, looked at the

481
00:27:03.296 --> 00:27:06.476
garage, told the company that we had hired that

482
00:27:07.456 --> 00:27:11.136
they held the job until they went to the city to show them

483
00:27:11.316 --> 00:27:13.676
stamping because of the city sidewalk.

484
00:27:13.696 --> 00:27:16.476
The company we hired went to the city, showed the stamping.

485
00:27:16.636 --> 00:27:18.736
They had permission to pour.

486
00:27:20.216 --> 00:27:23.896
We completed the job. They did the garage, the

487
00:27:23.936 --> 00:27:26.686
driveway, and a couple of the city sidewalks.

488
00:27:27.756 --> 00:27:30.996
And the first city inspector came out, looked at everything,

489
00:27:33.876 --> 00:27:35.056
gave them the okay.

490
00:27:35.716 --> 00:27:39.406
Well, the first one,

491
00:27:39.776 --> 00:27:42.716
when he came out, the only thing he told us, we had to have the stamp for the city

492
00:27:42.816 --> 00:27:46.716
sidewalk. And he went over everything, said that the

493
00:27:46.736 --> 00:27:50.236
driveway was fine at the time, as long as the approach wasn't

494
00:27:50.716 --> 00:27:54.616
changed, and there was 10 feet between the driveway

495
00:27:54.816 --> 00:27:57.496
and our neighbor's property line.

496
00:27:58.496 --> 00:28:02.356
We had the job completed. Another city inspector came out and deemed it

497
00:28:02.396 --> 00:28:06.276
as excellent. 11 years later, we've received a variance in the

498
00:28:06.336 --> 00:28:06.596
mail

499
00:28:07.476 --> 00:28:09.335
for our driveway.

500
00:28:11.496 --> 00:28:11.776
Okay.

501
00:28:12.976 --> 00:28:16.056
Thank you for that explanation. This is a public hearing.

502
00:28:16.096 --> 00:28:18.676
Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak on this item?

503
00:28:21.276 --> 00:28:24.296
You can also approach and start with your name and address first.

504
00:28:25.156 --> 00:28:27.186
My name is John Pozloski. I live next door at

505
00:28:27.336 --> 00:28:30.076
32052 Newcastle Drive.

506
00:28:31.196 --> 00:28:34.816
I have no problems whatsoever with this pad the way it is.

507
00:28:35.476 --> 00:28:39.236
I would suggest to you that the issues that seems to be going around the

508
00:28:39.276 --> 00:28:40.176
neighborhood right now,

509
00:28:42.376 --> 00:28:46.106
I don't know why they're becoming ahead now because there's so many

510
00:28:46.116 --> 00:28:49.856
different variations on the houses, where the driveways go, where the

511
00:28:49.896 --> 00:28:51.776
approaches go, how far back they go.

512
00:28:52.356 --> 00:28:56.056
All kinds of things going on. And I would prefer to

513
00:28:56.096 --> 00:28:59.796
see vehicles parked on driveways rather than in the street.

514
00:28:59.916 --> 00:29:03.836
We have problems in certain areas of the street where people park

515
00:29:03.896 --> 00:29:07.356
cars and with trailers and stuff on the street, and they never move.

516
00:29:08.316 --> 00:29:10.196
We've got one house towards the end of the block.

517
00:29:10.216 --> 00:29:13.716
The guy, he had one car sitting in his driveway for 22

518
00:29:13.816 --> 00:29:17.796
years that obviously was never being used, and yet the city never

519
00:29:17.836 --> 00:29:20.046
came around and did anything about it.

520
00:29:20.116 --> 00:29:23.896
And I made a complaint, and he got a ticket, and then I guess about three weeks

521
00:29:23.956 --> 00:29:27.766
later, the car was gone, but he still has two pickup trucks

522
00:29:27.796 --> 00:29:31.496
and a trailer there. And he parks his trailer and

523
00:29:33.576 --> 00:29:33.856
pickup,

524
00:29:34.956 --> 00:29:38.836
which makes it tough because right by 14 Mile Road, and if you want to

525
00:29:38.856 --> 00:29:41.516
get out on the street and you got somebody coming in or there's somebody parked on

526
00:29:41.536 --> 00:29:43.996
the opposite side of the street, it is dangerous.

527
00:29:44.016 --> 00:29:47.526
There's no question about it. So again, I would much rather

528
00:29:47.556 --> 00:29:50.596
see cars off the street onto parking lots.

529
00:29:51.036 --> 00:29:54.736
And we seem to be spending a lot of time worrying about the dimensions of

530
00:29:55.336 --> 00:29:58.376
a pad or something like that, which seems a little silly to me.

531
00:30:00.096 --> 00:30:03.656
And just as a side note, the city also owns

532
00:30:03.976 --> 00:30:06.996
the trees that are in the boulevards.

533
00:30:07.476 --> 00:30:11.096
When these trees get knocked over from a storm or something, the city comes and

534
00:30:11.576 --> 00:30:13.936
pulls them out. They don't come and replace them. Why?

535
00:30:15.976 --> 00:30:16.336
I don't know.

536
00:30:17.336 --> 00:30:18.156
That's my two cents.

537
00:30:25.420 --> 00:30:28.800
My name is Jonathan Smith. I'm a neighbor far down the block,

538
00:30:29.140 --> 00:30:32.960
32922 Newcastle. I'm also here for the same thing

539
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:33.300
today.

540
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:37.990
It's a very busy street, especially between 2:00 and 7:00.

541
00:30:38.020 --> 00:30:40.510
I live in that first four houses off the corner,

542
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:43.140
and it is dangerous.

543
00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:47.610
I prefer my kids playing in the driveway and in the backyard of the driveway,

544
00:30:47.840 --> 00:30:51.380
and just think that we need to be focusing on other things.

545
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:52.560
Thank you.

546
00:30:57.560 --> 00:31:01.380
Hello there. My name's Joe Scali. I live right

547
00:31:01.420 --> 00:31:04.740
across the street from Darren and Michelle, and I actually

548
00:31:04.840 --> 00:31:08.630
appreciate that they are not parking on the street

549
00:31:08.800 --> 00:31:11.760
because when I pull back out of my driveway,

550
00:31:13.180 --> 00:31:15.580
cars would be there ordinarily.

551
00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:20.100
But since they have their cars on that

552
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:21.560
concrete, it's

553
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:23.900
safer for me.

554
00:31:24.760 --> 00:31:27.140
They put a lot of money into their house.

555
00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:30.620
It looks good and I

556
00:31:31.860 --> 00:31:35.560
feel that it's actually safer to have them off the street.

557
00:31:37.080 --> 00:31:40.600
Now, if he was a backyard mechanic and he was

558
00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:44.590
just wrenching on things, it might be a different story, but he's not

559
00:31:44.660 --> 00:31:48.220
using it for that purpose. It looks good.

560
00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:51.580
I believe it brings up the property value,

561
00:31:52.600 --> 00:31:56.240
and I actually appreciate all that they've done.

562
00:31:56.800 --> 00:31:57.240
Thank you.

563
00:32:01.820 --> 00:32:05.780
My name is Mohammed Hassan. I live in 32205 Newcastle

564
00:32:05.840 --> 00:32:09.600
Drive, just on the other side of the street. I have three little boys.

565
00:32:09.780 --> 00:32:11.120
I've been living there for eight years.

566
00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.880
I've been taking care of my yard. They have a nice yard, right?

567
00:32:15.120 --> 00:32:18.660
And then I have little kids, and every day there's buses passes

568
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:21.640
by. Having the car

569
00:32:22.500 --> 00:32:22.760
in the

570
00:32:23.900 --> 00:32:26.700
parking lot, it's better for us, for my kids.

571
00:32:27.280 --> 00:32:31.060
I have no objections. It looks beautiful, and if you see how the

572
00:32:31.120 --> 00:32:33.440
house is there, it's all beautiful. It's well taken care of.

573
00:32:33.580 --> 00:32:37.300
There's absolutely no reason for have them give this hard

574
00:32:37.340 --> 00:32:40.870
time. I really appreciate if you can approve this not

575
00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:44.480
to make any adjustment for their driveway. Thank you.

576
00:32:48.320 --> 00:32:48.760
Okay. Thank

577
00:32:49.900 --> 00:32:53.840
you for those comments. With that, I'll close the public portion of the

578
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:57.220
meeting and turn it over to the board for questions and discussion.

579
00:32:57.500 --> 00:32:57.960
Mr. Chair?

580
00:32:58.240 --> 00:32:59.000
Yes, Mr. Watts?

581
00:33:00.340 --> 00:33:00.580
So

582
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:03.580
I think it's important to answer a few questions.

583
00:33:05.340 --> 00:33:08.270
What's going on here? Somebody paved their

584
00:33:08.340 --> 00:33:10.630
driveway on another street over,

585
00:33:12.140 --> 00:33:12.490
and

586
00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:17.200
a stop order was put on because they went over and above.

587
00:33:17.280 --> 00:33:19.199
You only need a permit

588
00:33:20.220 --> 00:33:21.800
for the approach and the sidewalk.

589
00:33:21.840 --> 00:33:24.380
You don't need to replace your driveway itself,

590
00:33:25.780 --> 00:33:29.420
but the driveway has to be... The ordinance

591
00:33:29.520 --> 00:33:32.580
is from edge of the garage to the other edge of the garage.

592
00:33:34.140 --> 00:33:37.780
And the gentleman on the other street did the same thing, went way

593
00:33:37.900 --> 00:33:41.520
over. He was told not to pour, the stop work order.

594
00:33:41.580 --> 00:33:44.860
He did it anyways, and this is what brought all this to a head,

595
00:33:45.600 --> 00:33:46.560
and we turned him down.

596
00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:51.120
He put a shed in without a rat wall on the same concrete.

597
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:55.040
Just tons of violations. Violated the ordinance, violated a

598
00:33:55.100 --> 00:33:55.620
stop order,

599
00:33:56.440 --> 00:34:00.300
and we said, "No, you can't do this," because everybody's going to be doing

600
00:34:00.340 --> 00:34:00.440
it.

601
00:34:01.340 --> 00:34:04.680
Now, I've drove through the neighborhood four or five times in the past month and a

602
00:34:04.740 --> 00:34:07.700
half since that came down, just knowing this was coming,

603
00:34:08.560 --> 00:34:11.710
and he told us at that meeting, "I'm going to go turn everybody in in the

604
00:34:11.761 --> 00:34:13.640
neighborhood that's got extra driveway.

605
00:34:13.700 --> 00:34:15.761
That's why you guys are all here."

606
00:34:16.540 --> 00:34:16.790
28.

607
00:34:17.341 --> 00:34:21.190
28 people he turned in. So thank your neighbor for this, because

608
00:34:21.240 --> 00:34:24.361
he violated a stop order and violated the

609
00:34:24.420 --> 00:34:27.120
ordinance. It's not rocket science.

610
00:34:28.220 --> 00:34:29.140
So they have to-

611
00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:32.821
So this is the problem. And then we have one down the street from you.

612
00:34:32.900 --> 00:34:33.361
Hang on.

613
00:34:34.240 --> 00:34:37.761
We have one down the street from you. Same thing. They went for a permit.

614
00:34:38.130 --> 00:34:40.400
They said they didn't need a permit to replace their driveway.

615
00:34:40.790 --> 00:34:43.781
But not only did they replace their driveway, they doubled the size of it.

616
00:34:45.220 --> 00:34:46.660
That's not included in any ordinance.

617
00:34:47.700 --> 00:34:49.990
And this is happening all over the city,

618
00:34:51.020 --> 00:34:53.801
and people are parking like five, six, seven cars

619
00:34:54.861 --> 00:34:56.900
where lawn used to be, turning their

620
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:00.700
front lawns into parking lots. That's why we're here.

621
00:35:01.260 --> 00:35:05.200
Now, you guys might not be here had your neighbor been such a

622
00:35:05.260 --> 00:35:07.740
kind of guy like, "Well, if you're going to get me, I'm going to get all my

623
00:35:07.750 --> 00:35:08.140
neighbors."

624
00:35:09.100 --> 00:35:12.340
So you have to understand where it's coming from.

625
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.650
Now, as a ZBA member, I'm a former council member.

626
00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:19.120
We have ordinances, and we have to abide by those ordinances.

627
00:35:19.580 --> 00:35:22.120
It's unfortunate that you

628
00:35:23.080 --> 00:35:26.760
got caught. I don't know why. I don't understand

629
00:35:26.920 --> 00:35:29.460
here why you didn't get caught when they approved the sidewalk and the-

630
00:35:29.640 --> 00:35:31.060
Yeah, we had three city inspectors-

631
00:35:31.140 --> 00:35:31.640
The approach

632
00:35:31.650 --> 00:35:31.650
... approve it.

633
00:35:31.660 --> 00:35:32.150
The approach

634
00:35:32.700 --> 00:35:33.900
Before it was poured.

635
00:35:33.950 --> 00:35:33.950
So-

636
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.490
We would have never poured it if they told us otherwise.

637
00:35:36.490 --> 00:35:37.140
Yeah. I mean, that would have saved us money.

638
00:35:37.160 --> 00:35:39.660
Okay. So this is where we're at.

639
00:35:39.830 --> 00:35:40.060
So there you go.

640
00:35:40.600 --> 00:35:41.460
Now, we can't

641
00:35:42.580 --> 00:35:42.980
deny

642
00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:47.600
one. Another one got denied. It's two. So there's going to be a problem.

643
00:35:48.340 --> 00:35:52.260
I can't go for this because it's getting bad with the-

644
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:54.170
But then what is the point of coming here if you-

645
00:35:54.200 --> 00:35:54.780
Point of order

646
00:35:54.820 --> 00:35:55.420
... can't make a-

647
00:35:55.510 --> 00:35:56.160
Point of chair.

648
00:35:57.200 --> 00:36:00.580
Well, the thing is, this was 11 years ago for us.

649
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:02.460
We're... It's our portion now, okay?

650
00:36:04.820 --> 00:36:07.730
So that's how... I wanted you to know how we got here and the people who spoke.

651
00:36:07.730 --> 00:36:08.360
Oh, we know how we got here.

652
00:36:08.580 --> 00:36:09.100
You know?

653
00:36:09.140 --> 00:36:10.320
We think it's ridiculous.

654
00:36:10.820 --> 00:36:10.980
So-

655
00:36:11.300 --> 00:36:11.559
Well-

656
00:36:11.720 --> 00:36:14.900
... the city inspectors are doing their job now and enforcing it.

657
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.960
So then the alternative is to come to a variance.

658
00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:22.340
And we have, as city people, a

659
00:36:23.140 --> 00:36:24.260
committee or commission,

660
00:36:25.420 --> 00:36:27.800
it's our job to stay on top of the ordinances.

661
00:36:27.860 --> 00:36:31.580
If we let one go here and then one gets over here, and

662
00:36:31.620 --> 00:36:33.280
everybody... See, this is what's happened.

663
00:36:33.540 --> 00:36:37.430
Everybody's over there saying-"Oh, Joe's got that.

664
00:36:37.490 --> 00:36:39.630
I'm going to do that, too. Sam's got one.

665
00:36:39.670 --> 00:36:43.290
I'm going to do that, too." And everybody goes another six inches.

666
00:36:43.350 --> 00:36:44.370
Everybody goes another foot.

667
00:36:45.710 --> 00:36:47.370
To me, it's a detriment to the area.

668
00:36:47.850 --> 00:36:50.210
And I understand what your neighbors are saying about the-

669
00:36:50.390 --> 00:36:53.710
11 years ago is when that should've been taken care of, not-

670
00:36:53.990 --> 00:36:57.590
I'm not going to argue with you about that because I understand.

671
00:36:57.750 --> 00:36:58.350
Okay. We live close.

672
00:36:58.390 --> 00:37:01.930
I find this is a detriment to the area, and I'm going to be a no vote.

673
00:37:01.990 --> 00:37:03.230
I can't approve this kind of stuff.

674
00:37:03.690 --> 00:37:03.700
Okay.

675
00:37:03.700 --> 00:37:04.170
Mr. Chair?

676
00:37:04.490 --> 00:37:05.190
Yes, Mr. Green.

677
00:37:08.830 --> 00:37:09.190
So

678
00:37:11.070 --> 00:37:13.310
this is getting kind of complicated.

679
00:37:14.290 --> 00:37:14.610
And

680
00:37:16.030 --> 00:37:17.010
please understand,

681
00:37:18.770 --> 00:37:19.490
ordinances are

682
00:37:20.370 --> 00:37:23.450
laws of the city. They're

683
00:37:24.110 --> 00:37:28.030
actual laws. Like for example, in theory, if you went

684
00:37:28.050 --> 00:37:31.590
to sell your house and you were in violation of an ordinance, like let's say this

685
00:37:31.630 --> 00:37:34.670
one in particular, a mortgage company might not approve your mortgage until you

686
00:37:35.810 --> 00:37:39.140
become compliant with the law. Because a lot of things

687
00:37:39.209 --> 00:37:43.150
that laws have baggage that come with them.

688
00:37:43.170 --> 00:37:45.650
But that's not the motivation for what's happening.

689
00:37:46.110 --> 00:37:49.310
Somebody turned it in, and that's a whole another story.

690
00:37:50.130 --> 00:37:54.080
And the part of the motivation at the beginning was, you have to picture this

691
00:37:54.110 --> 00:37:57.830
in your mind. We had people literally

692
00:37:57.910 --> 00:38:01.470
paving their entire front yards, not just what you guys have

693
00:38:01.510 --> 00:38:04.690
done, which a million people in the city of Warren have done.

694
00:38:05.710 --> 00:38:09.280
We've had people who paved their entire front yards, and what they were doing was

695
00:38:09.310 --> 00:38:12.850
they were running businesses out of there, and the neighbors weren't happy about

696
00:38:12.890 --> 00:38:16.090
it, or they were having multiple families live in their house.

697
00:38:16.190 --> 00:38:20.030
So at that time, it became an issue with where are we

698
00:38:20.130 --> 00:38:21.430
at and where are we going with this.

699
00:38:23.110 --> 00:38:27.030
I personally think that a lot of the confusion is a result

700
00:38:27.070 --> 00:38:30.630
of what you guys are saying. Your permit was to have

701
00:38:30.690 --> 00:38:32.390
your garage poured.

702
00:38:32.690 --> 00:38:33.840
Yes. Because we own it at the same time.

703
00:38:33.930 --> 00:38:37.070
I'm not asking a question, but I understand.

704
00:38:37.150 --> 00:38:41.010
And it's confusing to a layperson who you only do it once in your life,

705
00:38:41.090 --> 00:38:43.270
so it's not like you have a lot of experience doing it.

706
00:38:44.350 --> 00:38:47.170
I think we should require a permit for the driveway.

707
00:38:48.350 --> 00:38:51.730
Because right now it's kind of confusing.

708
00:38:51.810 --> 00:38:55.050
So I don't have to get a permit for my driveway.

709
00:38:56.900 --> 00:39:00.110
I have to get a permit for the apron because the city owns it, and for the

710
00:39:00.150 --> 00:39:03.310
sidewalk. And then I think people think, well,

711
00:39:03.890 --> 00:39:07.790
then the inspector comes out and says, "That looks great." What he meant

712
00:39:07.850 --> 00:39:11.530
was, "That looks great," because you didn't have to pull a permit for it.

713
00:39:11.630 --> 00:39:15.590
So I think as we move forward here, and I'm going to try

714
00:39:15.630 --> 00:39:19.390
to straighten that out in a second, that one of the things we need to do, and I

715
00:39:19.410 --> 00:39:21.670
don't know if you can or you can't, is to

716
00:39:22.670 --> 00:39:26.560
require permits for driveways. And that way, the person can say to you right there,

717
00:39:27.230 --> 00:39:29.030
"You can't do that," or, "You can do it."

718
00:39:31.270 --> 00:39:32.350
Pre-1995-

719
00:39:32.370 --> 00:39:32.650
So-

720
00:39:32.750 --> 00:39:34.950
... Warren required permits for driveways.

721
00:39:35.130 --> 00:39:38.890
Well, that's good to know, but it doesn't now.

722
00:39:39.730 --> 00:39:43.130
So I'm not trying to argue with you or debate with you.

723
00:39:43.160 --> 00:39:44.360
No, I'm just asking you what you have to say.

724
00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:45.310
I know, but this is

725
00:39:46.130 --> 00:39:48.250
really kind of your nuts. We're just supposed to do this.

726
00:39:48.610 --> 00:39:48.620
No.

727
00:39:48.650 --> 00:39:50.230
So

728
00:39:52.350 --> 00:39:56.130
I'll give you an example. At the last meeting, we had people

729
00:39:56.430 --> 00:39:59.310
voting based on what they thought about the existing ordinance.

730
00:39:59.370 --> 00:40:01.290
The existing ordinance is what it is.

731
00:40:02.590 --> 00:40:06.310
At this particular point, there's not a heck of a lot we can do about it.

732
00:40:06.370 --> 00:40:08.690
So what I am suggesting is this,

733
00:40:10.430 --> 00:40:10.770
and

734
00:40:11.990 --> 00:40:13.900
I don't know how they're going to particularly handle

735
00:40:14.710 --> 00:40:17.990
what we do here on whether we deny or approve your variance.

736
00:40:18.410 --> 00:40:21.250
I'm sure there's going to be an answer for that.

737
00:40:21.810 --> 00:40:22.130
But

738
00:40:23.310 --> 00:40:26.190
I think what we need to do is I think we need this body, and

739
00:40:27.550 --> 00:40:29.470
our attorney will be the person who would do it.

740
00:40:30.030 --> 00:40:31.830
I think we need to send a letter to council

741
00:40:33.170 --> 00:40:37.110
explaining that we've had numerous driveway complaints that come our way

742
00:40:37.170 --> 00:40:41.050
as a result of this particularly new phase of

743
00:40:41.110 --> 00:40:41.490
people

744
00:40:42.290 --> 00:40:46.230
cementing their entire front yards and parking their work vehicles and having

745
00:40:46.270 --> 00:40:50.250
multiple families and stuff. I asked Steve today to get a number for the letter

746
00:40:50.290 --> 00:40:51.750
of how many people in the last year,

747
00:40:52.970 --> 00:40:55.589
Steve Waterbond, have come to us with driveway problems.

748
00:40:56.450 --> 00:40:56.700
And then

749
00:40:58.310 --> 00:41:00.610
I want the city council to look at the ordinance

750
00:41:01.570 --> 00:41:04.070
to see if there is anything that needs to be changed,

751
00:41:05.130 --> 00:41:08.850
and I want them to see why we're not requesting permits for

752
00:41:08.950 --> 00:41:12.090
driveways, because it is a source of confusion for

753
00:41:13.830 --> 00:41:14.450
homeowners.

754
00:41:15.630 --> 00:41:17.480
And then the attorney can draft that letter,

755
00:41:18.530 --> 00:41:22.370
and that letter can be to council, and then council, whatever the

756
00:41:22.410 --> 00:41:24.810
process is to contact plan. I don't know.

757
00:41:24.830 --> 00:41:26.950
It would go from there to planning or whatever.

758
00:41:26.970 --> 00:41:30.750
But I think we, as a body, need to send a letter to the council saying, "Look,

759
00:41:31.170 --> 00:41:34.960
we're sitting here in front of people who've had driveways for 20 years to tell

760
00:41:34.990 --> 00:41:37.750
them they can't have them," because in theory,

761
00:41:39.390 --> 00:41:43.230
unless those practical difficulty standards, if you don't,

762
00:41:43.370 --> 00:41:47.090
it's a law. So we need a pretty good reason to

763
00:41:47.150 --> 00:41:50.790
say you can keep it. So I personally don't

764
00:41:50.830 --> 00:41:54.550
know if there is an answer, if the ordinance can be

765
00:41:54.610 --> 00:41:56.270
changed to

766
00:41:56.370 --> 00:42:00.240
accommodate everybody. But I've

767
00:42:00.290 --> 00:42:03.950
seen a lot of people who have basketball poles for their kids, and they want to add

768
00:42:04.050 --> 00:42:04.880
a couple feet,

769
00:42:06.630 --> 00:42:10.070
or we've approved some people who've had handicapped children who

770
00:42:10.110 --> 00:42:13.830
need extra spaces and stuff. There are situations

771
00:42:13.890 --> 00:42:16.050
where there can be

772
00:42:16.110 --> 00:42:20.090
some leeway. Our problem

773
00:42:20.210 --> 00:42:24.030
is Warren's the little residential house

774
00:42:24.070 --> 00:42:24.610
community.

775
00:42:25.430 --> 00:42:28.650
So to keep that residential

776
00:42:28.890 --> 00:42:32.750
look is I think a part of this particular ordinance that's in the books now.

777
00:42:33.180 --> 00:42:36.690
We have a driveway, and the argument of parking in the street,

778
00:42:36.790 --> 00:42:40.270
I understand what you're saying, but it's not the argument

779
00:42:40.350 --> 00:42:43.762
that's going to winWin the day for you because

780
00:42:44.202 --> 00:42:47.802
people have been parking. I know it. I'm in the same boat you guys are.

781
00:42:48.182 --> 00:42:51.002
I live on a street where people are flying out of this condo place,

782
00:42:51.702 --> 00:42:55.042
and I park on the street because I have two cars in the driveway.

783
00:42:55.062 --> 00:42:58.812
And a lot of people use their garages for, they store stuff in it, so there's not a

784
00:42:58.902 --> 00:43:02.512
lot of room. It is a problem. So that's why I am going to

785
00:43:02.562 --> 00:43:05.922
request, I don't know if we need to vote on this or not.

786
00:43:05.962 --> 00:43:07.552
Probably under new business or something.

787
00:43:07.682 --> 00:43:11.382
So under new business, I'll be requesting a letter be sent to council,

788
00:43:12.002 --> 00:43:15.882
and our city attorney can draft a letter based on our comments to her

789
00:43:15.922 --> 00:43:17.262
during new business.

790
00:43:18.382 --> 00:43:19.542
And in the meantime,

791
00:43:24.602 --> 00:43:28.342
I don't know how the administration wants to handle this in the meantime.

792
00:43:28.962 --> 00:43:32.762
But in the meantime, I think what they have to be careful

793
00:43:32.842 --> 00:43:33.202
of is

794
00:43:34.122 --> 00:43:37.582
this is complicated. We have a city ordinance

795
00:43:38.382 --> 00:43:41.662
that specifically says the authority of the building department

796
00:43:41.702 --> 00:43:44.982
limitations. And I want to read this into the record

797
00:43:45.842 --> 00:43:49.482
so it's pretty clear where we're coming from, because we weren't born

798
00:43:49.542 --> 00:43:50.062
yesterday.

799
00:43:51.102 --> 00:43:54.412
Under no circumstances the building department permitted to make

800
00:43:54.522 --> 00:43:58.372
changes to an ordinance or to vary the

801
00:43:58.422 --> 00:44:02.322
terms of any application or any applicable ordinance

802
00:44:02.362 --> 00:44:05.642
in carrying out the duties of the building department, nor shall the building

803
00:44:05.702 --> 00:44:09.342
department be permitted to grant exceptions to the actual

804
00:44:09.442 --> 00:44:10.942
meaning of the ordinance.

805
00:44:11.962 --> 00:44:14.002
So that's pretty clear

806
00:44:14.802 --> 00:44:17.002
that the ordinance we have,

807
00:44:18.102 --> 00:44:21.442
we have to work with it until we change the ordinance.

808
00:44:22.102 --> 00:44:23.922
So the answer is to change the ordinance.

809
00:44:24.982 --> 00:44:28.912
Hopefully, after we vote on this, whether you're denied or approved, if you

810
00:44:29.162 --> 00:44:29.812
listen to me,

811
00:44:30.922 --> 00:44:31.982
hear me, what I'm telling you,

812
00:44:33.102 --> 00:44:34.442
whether you're denied or approved,

813
00:44:35.242 --> 00:44:38.322
I have to vote to deny. This is a city law.

814
00:44:39.822 --> 00:44:41.122
The bigger problem is

815
00:44:42.422 --> 00:44:44.042
there's some people out there who are p****s,

816
00:44:45.002 --> 00:44:48.742
who are turning people in when they know it's just to be

817
00:44:48.782 --> 00:44:51.751
mean. And that's not the purpose of what we're trying to do up here.

818
00:44:52.522 --> 00:44:56.281
So we're going to try to solve your problem, but we can't solve your problem today.

819
00:44:56.322 --> 00:44:59.632
And solving your problem is not going to be as easy as it sounds, because we got

820
00:44:59.662 --> 00:45:01.962
multiple layers of government in there.

821
00:45:01.982 --> 00:45:04.802
But we're not going to sit here today and we are probably...

822
00:45:04.922 --> 00:45:08.691
I'm going to vote to deny. But if you get denied, it

823
00:45:08.702 --> 00:45:11.582
doesn't mean we're not going to sit here and try to solve your problem for you.

824
00:45:12.442 --> 00:45:13.402
So I think you need to

825
00:45:14.482 --> 00:45:17.722
sit back. I talked to Steve Waterpront today, and he gave me some

826
00:45:18.522 --> 00:45:22.482
ideas about maybe having some administrative leeway

827
00:45:22.542 --> 00:45:26.251
where, and I don't know if I'm for that or not, but coming out and saying,

828
00:45:26.312 --> 00:45:28.662
"Well, you don't have to get a variance if you add

829
00:45:29.782 --> 00:45:33.482
four feet for your basketball pole." But you can see where that opens

830
00:45:33.622 --> 00:45:35.382
up, so where's the cutoff?

831
00:45:36.242 --> 00:45:40.042
Is it four feet? Is it six feet? It has to be thought out really well

832
00:45:40.642 --> 00:45:42.262
for us to change the ordinance.

833
00:45:43.182 --> 00:45:43.382
And I

834
00:45:44.222 --> 00:45:45.322
want to keep in mind that

835
00:45:47.802 --> 00:45:51.622
the building department has an ordinance says that they got to

836
00:45:51.662 --> 00:45:55.002
carry out their duties at the building department because it's the law.

837
00:45:55.602 --> 00:45:59.442
So it doesn't meet the practical standards as we

838
00:45:59.482 --> 00:46:00.282
sit here today,

839
00:46:01.762 --> 00:46:03.082
and

840
00:46:03.942 --> 00:46:05.022
that's how I'm going to try to

841
00:46:05.962 --> 00:46:09.922
solve the problem for people and make it at least

842
00:46:10.002 --> 00:46:13.622
realistic. But we're not allowing people to pave their

843
00:46:13.642 --> 00:46:17.432
entire front yards. We're not allowing people to put 10 or 12

844
00:46:17.482 --> 00:46:17.762
feet

845
00:46:18.602 --> 00:46:22.242
unless they can prove a practical difficulty, and that's what a

846
00:46:22.282 --> 00:46:25.722
variance is for. So it's

847
00:46:26.042 --> 00:46:29.402
disappointing that you've had it for 10 years and now it's come up.

848
00:46:29.782 --> 00:46:32.602
That's out of our control.

849
00:46:33.402 --> 00:46:35.802
We didn't do it to you. Someone else did it to you.

850
00:46:35.922 --> 00:46:36.362
You need to

851
00:46:37.602 --> 00:46:38.562
appreciate that.

852
00:46:39.442 --> 00:46:41.222
So did I make any sense?

853
00:46:41.742 --> 00:46:42.842
You made absolute sense.

854
00:46:42.942 --> 00:46:43.982
All right. Then I'm done.

855
00:46:44.322 --> 00:46:44.862
I'm proud of you.

856
00:46:45.762 --> 00:46:46.162
Thank you.

857
00:46:47.082 --> 00:46:47.652
Mr. Chairman.

858
00:46:47.652 --> 00:46:48.382
Mr. Chair. Oh.

859
00:46:49.202 --> 00:46:49.622
I'll get-

860
00:46:50.002 --> 00:46:51.982
Mr. Missy, go ahead. Mr. Safaya.

861
00:46:52.042 --> 00:46:54.462
My comments on this, I have a different view.

862
00:46:54.642 --> 00:46:58.022
The function of this board is to evaluate the

863
00:46:58.082 --> 00:47:01.742
unique circumstances of each item independently

864
00:47:01.762 --> 00:47:05.752
without precedent of others. I'm looking at the Google image of this house.

865
00:47:06.502 --> 00:47:10.082
Unlike some of the other petitioners that we have seen with small

866
00:47:10.182 --> 00:47:13.992
yards, this is a wide lot, and the driveway is done

867
00:47:14.022 --> 00:47:17.622
tastefully, in my opinion. It's been there for 11 years.

868
00:47:17.662 --> 00:47:21.202
If this was a criminal case or a civil case, there's usually a statute of

869
00:47:21.242 --> 00:47:25.022
limitations, which in my opinion is far exceeded.

870
00:47:25.582 --> 00:47:28.362
Not to mention a building permit was pulled for the garage floor.

871
00:47:29.642 --> 00:47:33.542
Now, I know the building permit, the inspector comes and looks at the

872
00:47:33.582 --> 00:47:37.442
garage floor. But in my experience with the inspectors in Warren, they're very

873
00:47:37.452 --> 00:47:40.982
thorough. And that little piece that is

874
00:47:41.042 --> 00:47:44.562
allegedly not part of the garage floor permit,

875
00:47:45.042 --> 00:47:45.462
it's right

876
00:47:46.362 --> 00:47:50.112
out in the open. It's not some little inconspicuous thing in their

877
00:47:50.202 --> 00:47:54.032
backyard. So in my mind, if the building inspector was out there 11 years

878
00:47:54.082 --> 00:47:55.602
ago, he saw that the

879
00:47:56.422 --> 00:47:59.202
sidewalk slab was new, just like the garage floor.

880
00:47:59.262 --> 00:48:03.042
If there was a problem, 11 years ago was the time to address it, not

881
00:48:03.082 --> 00:48:05.902
now. So this is definitely a yes vote for me.

882
00:48:05.942 --> 00:48:09.662
I evaluate each one of these driveway extensions

883
00:48:09.682 --> 00:48:12.042
individually based on the uniqueness of the lot.

884
00:48:12.882 --> 00:48:13.202
Thank you.

885
00:48:13.902 --> 00:48:14.662
Mr. Chair?

886
00:48:14.702 --> 00:48:15.502
Yes, Mr. Jersey.

887
00:48:17.642 --> 00:48:19.172
Both my colleagues bring up great points.

888
00:48:20.602 --> 00:48:22.542
To Mr. Safaya's point,

889
00:48:23.422 --> 00:48:26.602
we do need to evaluate each one on an individual basis.

890
00:48:27.242 --> 00:48:30.612
There's a few of you who have been on the board when we had

891
00:48:32.442 --> 00:48:36.292
pre-existing conditions where a homeowner bought the house with

892
00:48:37.302 --> 00:48:40.982
said side cement

893
00:48:41.022 --> 00:48:44.982
poured to the side or whatever. They wanted to put up a shed, and all

894
00:48:45.042 --> 00:48:47.792
of a sudden this got red flagged unbeknownst to them

895
00:48:48.882 --> 00:48:51.202
We've passed stuff like that

896
00:48:52.642 --> 00:48:53.142
in the past,

897
00:48:54.102 --> 00:48:57.572
but I fully agree. Every property is unique,

898
00:48:59.942 --> 00:49:00.042
but

899
00:49:00.842 --> 00:49:03.842
we all kind of have a good argument with this.

900
00:49:04.722 --> 00:49:07.162
When you grant this, it goes with the land forevermore.

901
00:49:07.782 --> 00:49:09.822
There's no reverse. So

902
00:49:10.782 --> 00:49:14.102
say you have good intentions with it, doesn't mean somebody else will come in,

903
00:49:14.842 --> 00:49:17.242
start a landscaping company, and just put trucks.

904
00:49:17.352 --> 00:49:21.282
So I'm trying to devil's

905
00:49:21.362 --> 00:49:24.782
advocate for some of my board members who feel like it's...

906
00:49:26.622 --> 00:49:29.352
So not to say it's currently being that way, but

907
00:49:30.842 --> 00:49:34.642
it could potentially, maybe down the road, somebody sees, "Oh, I got some

908
00:49:35.422 --> 00:49:38.502
room here, and I could put multiple trucks in here.

909
00:49:38.562 --> 00:49:42.422
This would be a good spot, a good house to buy for my business."

910
00:49:43.722 --> 00:49:44.652
To Mr. Green's point,

911
00:49:45.982 --> 00:49:48.572
since our last meeting, I've been doing some thinking about

912
00:49:49.442 --> 00:49:50.802
absolutely what you just said,

913
00:49:52.622 --> 00:49:54.562
about sending this to council.

914
00:49:56.082 --> 00:49:57.462
We take a vote as a board,

915
00:49:58.402 --> 00:50:01.122
come up with some kind

916
00:50:02.202 --> 00:50:04.902
of unanimous vote to send it back to council for review.

917
00:50:05.742 --> 00:50:09.641
Because just like I stated last meeting, we could have one of these meeting for the

918
00:50:09.702 --> 00:50:13.162
next 20, 30 years with as many as there are in this town, and it's not just your

919
00:50:13.202 --> 00:50:16.002
neighborhood. And I also feel I want to put it on the record, too.

920
00:50:16.042 --> 00:50:19.062
We need to stop being a complaint-driven city.

921
00:50:20.522 --> 00:50:22.002
That just puts neighbor against neighbor,

922
00:50:23.642 --> 00:50:26.002
tit for tat, makes living conditions

923
00:50:26.062 --> 00:50:29.942
awkward for people who

924
00:50:30.002 --> 00:50:32.762
invest to live in the city of Warren.

925
00:50:34.402 --> 00:50:37.782
We need to be more proactive with either this current administration, next

926
00:50:37.822 --> 00:50:41.582
administration. We need to be more proactive instead of

927
00:50:42.182 --> 00:50:43.782
all of a sudden, "Oh, I got you."

928
00:50:45.542 --> 00:50:48.042
And that, to me, is no way to operate

929
00:50:49.122 --> 00:50:52.542
indefinitely. I do like the idea of

930
00:50:52.552 --> 00:50:56.322
having the permitting for a driveway.

931
00:50:57.562 --> 00:51:00.782
That was a good thought. I think there's been a lot of good thoughts on this board

932
00:51:01.602 --> 00:51:04.542
from whatever angle you want to approach it with.

933
00:51:05.562 --> 00:51:09.542
But to Mr. Green's point, we're kind of bound by

934
00:51:09.562 --> 00:51:13.342
the law, and also to Mr. Safaya's point, got to take everything on a

935
00:51:13.402 --> 00:51:14.422
case-by-case basis.

936
00:51:15.982 --> 00:51:17.702
I live in that area. That street is busy.

937
00:51:17.862 --> 00:51:19.502
There's big buses that go down that street.

938
00:51:19.511 --> 00:51:23.502
It's a bus route, and it has the cutouts on the street, which actually make

939
00:51:23.542 --> 00:51:26.442
it nice, so it's not an absolute drag strip going up and down there.

940
00:51:27.702 --> 00:51:30.882
I remember when my dad bought the house, he says that was one of the cool things he

941
00:51:30.922 --> 00:51:34.842
thought about Newcastle was it had kick outs where you

942
00:51:34.882 --> 00:51:37.502
didn't have to worry about people drag racing up and down the street.

943
00:51:39.022 --> 00:51:42.342
But there is, from our perspective,

944
00:51:43.282 --> 00:51:46.042
at least from my perspective, there's no easy solution with this.

945
00:51:46.962 --> 00:51:50.342
It is tastefully done. I do agree with Mr. Safaya.

946
00:51:50.382 --> 00:51:52.542
I do agree with Mr. Watts and Mr. Green.

947
00:51:53.422 --> 00:51:53.682
So,

948
00:51:54.662 --> 00:51:57.062
I'm kind of torn in half with what to do here.

949
00:51:57.722 --> 00:51:58.022
So,

950
00:51:59.282 --> 00:52:02.362
I also agree, too, with what we discussed last meeting with

951
00:52:03.522 --> 00:52:05.382
Chairman Nostovich's comment where

952
00:52:06.402 --> 00:52:08.282
maybe we grandfather in a certain length.

953
00:52:09.102 --> 00:52:12.822
And I don't know what the answer is, but that's going to be for council to try

954
00:52:12.862 --> 00:52:16.772
and reevaluate and maybe re-look at this through

955
00:52:16.822 --> 00:52:20.622
a different set of lenses and come up with a

956
00:52:20.662 --> 00:52:21.282
solution that

957
00:52:22.102 --> 00:52:22.482
fits.

958
00:52:24.162 --> 00:52:25.642
So, with that, I'll yield the floor.

959
00:52:27.282 --> 00:52:27.662
Mr. Chair?

960
00:52:28.162 --> 00:52:28.432
Yes, Mr.

961
00:52:29.742 --> 00:52:30.122
Lindsay.

962
00:52:31.542 --> 00:52:33.562
I guess first of all, is my mic on? There it is.

963
00:52:33.622 --> 00:52:36.602
I've been having a hard time hearing myself talk, so I apologize.

964
00:52:37.042 --> 00:52:41.022
So just to echo some of the comments that my fellow board members

965
00:52:41.062 --> 00:52:44.422
make, I think you guys are in a really tough spot, and I do feel really bad.

966
00:52:46.322 --> 00:52:49.502
This really puts the board in a tough position.

967
00:52:50.562 --> 00:52:51.802
The way that I would look at this,

968
00:52:53.262 --> 00:52:56.462
the unfortunate circumstance is you guys have had that

969
00:52:56.682 --> 00:52:57.272
driveway,

970
00:52:58.502 --> 00:53:02.362
but had the proper processes been followed, you guys request a permit,

971
00:53:03.362 --> 00:53:07.242
it would've been required to get a variance on it, and it probably would get

972
00:53:07.262 --> 00:53:10.702
denied. This is something that the board hasn't really

973
00:53:10.842 --> 00:53:11.262
favored,

974
00:53:12.422 --> 00:53:13.482
and now we're seeing

975
00:53:14.302 --> 00:53:17.922
people coming to the board after the fact and saying,

976
00:53:18.682 --> 00:53:22.582
"Well, we've had it, so can we get the variance?" But if it would've went

977
00:53:22.602 --> 00:53:25.842
through the procedure the first time, the variance would probably get denied before

978
00:53:25.862 --> 00:53:29.502
you guys poured the concrete. So I feel bad for you guys.

979
00:53:29.772 --> 00:53:33.262
I don't know how this is happening in your neighborhood, just

980
00:53:33.322 --> 00:53:34.302
suddenly.

981
00:53:35.182 --> 00:53:37.742
It kind of sucks for everybody involved.

982
00:53:37.802 --> 00:53:39.142
I think the board members

983
00:53:40.582 --> 00:53:41.602
are included in that.

984
00:53:43.222 --> 00:53:44.562
I look at this.

985
00:53:45.482 --> 00:53:48.942
I will be a no vote. I look at the building

986
00:53:49.042 --> 00:53:52.942
permit. The building permit specifically for the garage floor,

987
00:53:53.582 --> 00:53:56.442
how the concrete gets poured past that 11 years ago, I don't know.

988
00:53:57.282 --> 00:53:59.022
That's not really what we're here to decide.

989
00:54:00.922 --> 00:54:04.022
I see this again, looking at the practical difficulties.

990
00:54:04.102 --> 00:54:05.782
If this was put up for a variance

991
00:54:07.262 --> 00:54:11.002
before concrete was poured, I'd vote no on it then, so I'm going to

992
00:54:11.042 --> 00:54:14.642
continue to vote no on it today. I just really want you guys to understand where

993
00:54:14.662 --> 00:54:18.602
I'm coming from so that when I do vote no, you at least understand why.

994
00:54:18.722 --> 00:54:21.462
It's an unfortunate no vote for me. Okay.

995
00:54:23.942 --> 00:54:24.462
Mr. Chair?

996
00:54:24.882 --> 00:54:25.602
Yes, Mr. Watts.

997
00:54:26.022 --> 00:54:26.092
So,

998
00:54:27.542 --> 00:54:30.802
I want to go back. I want one of the inspectors to come up if they can, too,

999
00:54:31.282 --> 00:54:34.102
because I got a question for them. But I want to go back to a comment that one of

1000
00:54:34.142 --> 00:54:38.062
the gentlemen made from the other side of the room there about the place with the

1001
00:54:38.122 --> 00:54:41.762
trailers. They put the pad in. They're running a business out of there with the

1002
00:54:41.802 --> 00:54:45.382
trailers and what have you. That's the kind of problem we're faced with

1003
00:54:46.102 --> 00:54:48.622
because that guy is definitely out of-

1004
00:54:48.682 --> 00:54:49.842
He's not running a business. He's a hoarder.

1005
00:54:50.382 --> 00:54:53.442
Oh, he's out of code either way. I understand.

1006
00:54:53.532 --> 00:54:55.442
And he doesn't have an extension on his driveway.

1007
00:54:55.962 --> 00:54:56.802
Yes, he does

1008
00:54:57.602 --> 00:54:58.422
On the one side, yeah.

1009
00:54:58.512 --> 00:54:58.762
Has he?

1010
00:54:59.302 --> 00:55:00.942
Yeah, because I looked at it when I went by.

1011
00:55:01.322 --> 00:55:01.822
Looked at the driveways.

1012
00:55:02.022 --> 00:55:05.522
Yeah. And it's just, I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" Because I would lose my mind

1013
00:55:05.582 --> 00:55:09.462
if that was on my street. And the

1014
00:55:09.482 --> 00:55:11.142
thing of it is, I'm going to go back and I'm going to say it again.

1015
00:55:12.282 --> 00:55:15.681
Somebody moves in there like, "Oh look, those nice people over there, they extended

1016
00:55:15.752 --> 00:55:18.962
their driveway. I'm going to do it." And these people just do it, and then we find

1017
00:55:19.002 --> 00:55:21.542
out later on, and that's a problem. I get it.

1018
00:55:21.582 --> 00:55:24.862
You guys are in a bad situation, but Steve, can you come up? I got a question.

1019
00:55:24.922 --> 00:55:25.342
I would have never-

1020
00:55:25.402 --> 00:55:27.042
Or I don't know, they might be able to answer it too.

1021
00:55:27.522 --> 00:55:28.312
But what I'm wondering-

1022
00:55:28.422 --> 00:55:32.282
If the employer permits to begin with, we wouldn't be in this

1023
00:55:32.322 --> 00:55:36.082
position because they could've denied it right then, 11 years

1024
00:55:36.122 --> 00:55:36.562
ago.

1025
00:55:36.642 --> 00:55:39.702
We would've never-

1026
00:55:40.182 --> 00:55:41.182
How can you get a variance-

1027
00:55:41.262 --> 00:55:42.002
So my question

1028
00:55:43.162 --> 00:55:43.432
is-

1029
00:55:43.462 --> 00:55:44.522
Point of order.

1030
00:55:45.042 --> 00:55:45.052
Sorry.

1031
00:55:45.052 --> 00:55:47.682
This is a public meeting. We can't be talking over.

1032
00:55:47.702 --> 00:55:49.582
We can't be taking questions from the audience.

1033
00:55:49.642 --> 00:55:53.002
If someone wants to speak, they need to approach the podium.

1034
00:55:53.042 --> 00:55:54.562
They need to get permission from the chair.

1035
00:55:55.702 --> 00:55:56.262
So Mr. Watts-

1036
00:55:56.442 --> 00:55:56.542
So-

1037
00:55:56.552 --> 00:55:57.152
... has a question for Steve.

1038
00:55:57.242 --> 00:55:58.032
So Mr. Waterpoint.

1039
00:55:58.552 --> 00:55:58.552
Yes, sir.

1040
00:55:58.562 --> 00:55:59.432
My question is,

1041
00:56:00.242 --> 00:56:03.942
I can't really tell by looking at the picture, and I don't think it's on this

1042
00:56:03.962 --> 00:56:07.642
print, but how close is the edge of that concrete to the property line?

1043
00:56:07.682 --> 00:56:07.982
Is that

1044
00:56:08.922 --> 00:56:12.242
conforming to the ordinance of how close we can be to a property line on something?

1045
00:56:13.182 --> 00:56:17.022
As far as the cement, it is far enough away for a

1046
00:56:17.082 --> 00:56:17.602
setback.

1047
00:56:18.142 --> 00:56:18.342
Okay.

1048
00:56:20.202 --> 00:56:21.442
Okay, thank you. That's all I got.

1049
00:56:23.222 --> 00:56:24.132
Any other que-

1050
00:56:24.182 --> 00:56:24.682
Mr. Watts?

1051
00:56:25.322 --> 00:56:25.562
Yeah.

1052
00:56:25.582 --> 00:56:29.202
That's a good point you raise. Mr. Waterpoint, I'm sorry, I missed it.

1053
00:56:30.042 --> 00:56:33.982
The ordinance is that the driveway cannot extend past the side wall of

1054
00:56:34.022 --> 00:56:34.582
the garage?

1055
00:56:34.882 --> 00:56:38.682
The side wall of the garage is what the ordinance is, what it

1056
00:56:38.722 --> 00:56:39.122
allows.

1057
00:56:39.422 --> 00:56:39.542
Okay.

1058
00:56:39.602 --> 00:56:41.922
Engineering only allows to the

1059
00:56:44.442 --> 00:56:46.942
length of the opening of the garage for the apron.

1060
00:56:47.662 --> 00:56:49.202
Zoning allows it to the garage.

1061
00:56:49.502 --> 00:56:53.002
Okay. Now what about homes where the garage is

1062
00:56:53.682 --> 00:56:55.722
perpendicular to the drive? How are they-

1063
00:56:55.782 --> 00:56:56.582
Where it turns?

1064
00:56:56.702 --> 00:56:57.282
Yeah.

1065
00:56:57.502 --> 00:57:01.232
Basically, you allow a turn radius, but it's not

1066
00:57:01.262 --> 00:57:04.402
more than the width of the garage for the approach on that.

1067
00:57:04.782 --> 00:57:08.602
Okay, because there's some homes on that street on the Google

1068
00:57:08.682 --> 00:57:12.062
image where there's a wide turn into the garage.

1069
00:57:12.171 --> 00:57:15.942
Now, obviously the drive is the same width as the opening of the

1070
00:57:16.582 --> 00:57:17.282
garage door.

1071
00:57:17.562 --> 00:57:21.282
Once you get past the edge of the house, it can go

1072
00:57:21.322 --> 00:57:24.102
wider too. So that's mostly where you got your turn.

1073
00:57:24.382 --> 00:57:25.822
Okay. That makes sense. Thank you.

1074
00:57:26.102 --> 00:57:26.402
Thank you.

1075
00:57:29.402 --> 00:57:31.022
Any other questions or any motions?

1076
00:57:34.862 --> 00:57:35.282
Mr. Chair?

1077
00:57:35.662 --> 00:57:36.402
Yes, Mr. Watts.

1078
00:57:36.622 --> 00:57:37.762
If there's no further questions,

1079
00:57:38.642 --> 00:57:42.622
I will make a motion to deny to retain a widened

1080
00:57:42.722 --> 00:57:45.962
portion of the driveway from the south front corner of the garage 10 foot

1081
00:57:46.022 --> 00:57:48.162
towards the south property line.

1082
00:57:49.102 --> 00:57:52.382
And I feel it wasn't a burden. It was

1083
00:57:54.062 --> 00:57:55.082
self-imposed.

1084
00:57:56.132 --> 00:57:57.482
The property is not unique.

1085
00:57:59.082 --> 00:58:02.562
I feel it's a detriment to the area, and it wasn't necessary.

1086
00:58:03.662 --> 00:58:04.282
Support.

1087
00:58:05.422 --> 00:58:09.242
So we have a motion to deny by Mr. Watts, with support by Mr.

1088
00:58:09.302 --> 00:58:11.362
Assessor for the reasons stated in the motion.

1089
00:58:12.462 --> 00:58:13.951
So it's a yes vote to deny.

1090
00:58:15.162 --> 00:58:15.742
Mr. Watts.

1091
00:58:16.302 --> 00:58:18.562
Yes to deny for the reasons stated in the motion.

1092
00:58:19.222 --> 00:58:19.832
Mr. Assessor.

1093
00:58:20.382 --> 00:58:22.582
Yes to deny for the reasons stated in the motion.

1094
00:58:23.802 --> 00:58:24.462
Mr. Green.

1095
00:58:24.502 --> 00:58:24.782
Yes.

1096
00:58:26.462 --> 00:58:27.042
Mr. Lindsay.

1097
00:58:27.522 --> 00:58:29.842
Yes to deny for the reasons stated in the motion.

1098
00:58:29.922 --> 00:58:30.402
Mr. Perry.

1099
00:58:31.362 --> 00:58:33.282
Yes to deny for the reasons stated in the motion.

1100
00:58:34.102 --> 00:58:34.762
Mr. Safaya.

1101
00:58:35.282 --> 00:58:38.142
No. I believe the practical difficulty standard has been met.

1102
00:58:41.042 --> 00:58:44.322
Mr. Jersey also votes no. I believe the practical difficulty standard was met.

1103
00:58:44.362 --> 00:58:45.262
And Chairman Nostavich.

1104
00:58:46.562 --> 00:58:50.502
I also vote no, because I agree with my previous

1105
00:58:50.542 --> 00:58:51.542
two board members.

1106
00:58:53.542 --> 00:58:57.302
So unfortunately, your request was denied with a five to three vote.

1107
00:59:02.222 --> 00:59:05.942
So I guess for your next steps, maybe you want to talk to the

1108
00:59:05.982 --> 00:59:09.442
zoning department. I know we, under new business, will address Mr.

1109
00:59:09.682 --> 00:59:11.062
Green's suggestion. But

1110
00:59:12.642 --> 00:59:14.762
for tonight, your request has been denied.

1111
00:59:15.342 --> 00:59:17.301
Okay. So what do we do from here on out?

1112
00:59:18.602 --> 00:59:18.622
I-

1113
00:59:18.662 --> 00:59:21.942
Because I received that letter saying that it was a $1,000 fine.

1114
00:59:23.202 --> 00:59:23.642
A day.

1115
00:59:25.182 --> 00:59:25.192
A day.

1116
00:59:25.192 --> 00:59:25.552
A day. Because-

1117
00:59:25.622 --> 00:59:27.052
I can't even afford to tear it out right now.

1118
00:59:27.282 --> 00:59:27.332
You should-

1119
00:59:27.332 --> 00:59:27.982
I would tell her to say Steve

1120
00:59:28.001 --> 00:59:30.182
... see Steve Waterpoint.

1121
00:59:31.482 --> 00:59:33.142
He could actually explain all that to you.

1122
00:59:33.642 --> 00:59:34.262
Okay.

1123
00:59:34.302 --> 00:59:38.262
Because 11 years ago, an inspector saw something that wasn't

1124
00:59:38.342 --> 00:59:41.232
supposed to be and didn't say anything about it.

1125
00:59:41.242 --> 00:59:43.662
No, I understand. But unfortunately for-

1126
00:59:43.722 --> 00:59:46.362
They would've had a better time to say it before we poured the cement,

1127
00:59:47.662 --> 00:59:50.862
which I would happily not poured and saved a lot of money.

1128
00:59:51.702 --> 00:59:55.342
No, I understand. But you could talk to Steve, and he could actually help

1129
00:59:55.482 --> 00:59:57.882
address next steps, and-

1130
00:59:57.912 --> 00:59:57.912
Okay

1131
00:59:57.912 --> 00:59:59.002
... thank you for your time.

1132
00:59:59.102 --> 00:59:59.621
Mm-hmm.

1133
01:00:02.002 --> 01:00:03.182
Takes us to item number nine.

1134
01:00:03.602 --> 01:00:04.842
Item nine.

1135
01:00:04.962 --> 01:00:05.082
Um.

1136
01:00:05.402 --> 01:00:06.242
I- I- No.

1137
01:00:06.562 --> 01:00:07.942
And not at this time.

1138
01:00:09.002 --> 01:00:09.282
Um.

1139
01:00:09.342 --> 01:00:11.502
Item nine. Applicant, Jessica-

1140
01:00:11.632 --> 01:00:11.652
Oh, during-

1141
01:00:11.652 --> 01:00:12.602
... and Jonathan Smith.

1142
01:00:13.682 --> 01:00:15.362
Representative Jessica and Jonathan Smith.

1143
01:00:15.482 --> 01:00:17.862
Common description 32922 Newcastle.

1144
01:00:17.922 --> 01:00:20.792
Variance has requested permission to retain the widened portion of driveway that

1145
01:00:20.822 --> 01:00:22.552
extends 12 feet 11 inches

1146
01:00:24.142 --> 01:00:27.902
from the southwest corner of the garage toward the south property

1147
01:00:27.982 --> 01:00:28.322
line.

1148
01:00:30.782 --> 01:00:32.682
So if you could start with your name and address and-

1149
01:00:32.762 --> 01:00:35.442
Jonathan Smith, 32922 Newcastle.

1150
01:00:36.522 --> 01:00:38.762
Jessica Smith, 32922 Newcastle.

1151
01:00:39.262 --> 01:00:40.162
Okay. And-

1152
01:00:41.342 --> 01:00:42.962
It's got a green light. There we go.

1153
01:00:43.182 --> 01:00:43.642
Thank you.

1154
01:00:43.662 --> 01:00:43.902
And then-

1155
01:00:44.722 --> 01:00:45.632
Um. You guys are-

1156
01:00:45.662 --> 01:00:46.782
Take us through your request.

1157
01:00:46.842 --> 01:00:46.962
Oh.

1158
01:00:49.502 --> 01:00:49.822
What was that?

1159
01:00:50.142 --> 01:00:52.062
Yeah. If you can explain your request.

1160
01:00:52.502 --> 01:00:54.722
Yeah. We're pretty close to the corner.

1161
01:00:56.002 --> 01:00:58.482
It's a very dangerous street, like I said.

1162
01:00:58.542 --> 01:01:02.482
I've had a car parked and hit. I've had a car stolen

1163
01:01:02.502 --> 01:01:04.462
from the driveway. Um-

1164
01:01:05.522 --> 01:01:09.442
It's been very rough. We've had people try to break in and wife barricaded in the

1165
01:01:09.502 --> 01:01:12.022
house, and the police say, "Call your husband."

1166
01:01:12.922 --> 01:01:16.622
This is a very unique situation. We

1167
01:01:18.202 --> 01:01:22.072
did this six years ago. We were under the understanding that you can have a

1168
01:01:22.082 --> 01:01:24.882
driveway or a trailer in your backyard.

1169
01:01:26.082 --> 01:01:29.222
How do you get a trailer in your backyard? You drive it over muddy grass.

1170
01:01:29.882 --> 01:01:31.122
Well, how can we get the trailer out?

1171
01:01:31.982 --> 01:01:34.782
We can only fit two cars in our driveway.

1172
01:01:34.822 --> 01:01:36.082
We have a four-bedroom house.

1173
01:01:37.622 --> 01:01:40.942
So we did expand it, and we checked with the company.

1174
01:01:42.062 --> 01:01:45.942
The company said no permits were needed from the sidewalk as long as we don't touch

1175
01:01:45.962 --> 01:01:46.582
the apron

1176
01:01:47.402 --> 01:01:48.102
to the garage.

1177
01:01:49.602 --> 01:01:50.962
But we're allowed to have

1178
01:01:51.902 --> 01:01:53.182
trailers, correct?

1179
01:01:54.402 --> 01:01:57.362
Which would be parked in the backyard. How do you get to the backyard?

1180
01:01:58.922 --> 01:01:59.962
So I went to the

1181
01:02:03.042 --> 01:02:05.742
city three times before I got a little bit of clarification,

1182
01:02:06.662 --> 01:02:09.282
and they were talking that you can't bump out the

1183
01:02:10.442 --> 01:02:14.402
side driveway unless you were a certain feet in front

1184
01:02:14.542 --> 01:02:14.752
of-

1185
01:02:16.322 --> 01:02:17.412
The garage

1186
01:02:17.412 --> 01:02:21.022
... the front of the garage. And that was with Suzanne, which was the lady who

1187
01:02:21.042 --> 01:02:23.002
wrote the ticket, and somebody else.

1188
01:02:24.422 --> 01:02:28.022
So we were told at the very worst, we're going to have to cut some of the driveway

1189
01:02:28.122 --> 01:02:29.362
out, but not the whole thing.

1190
01:02:30.642 --> 01:02:33.942
And the trailer was only for recreational use. We like weekend warriors.

1191
01:02:33.992 --> 01:02:35.982
We like to go up north and have a good time.

1192
01:02:36.002 --> 01:02:36.142
And

1193
01:02:37.162 --> 01:02:40.022
we got cited for the trailer after we built the garage,

1194
01:02:40.822 --> 01:02:41.422
two years.

1195
01:02:42.382 --> 01:02:45.982
And when I went in to figure out what it was, I thought it was the driveway.

1196
01:02:45.992 --> 01:02:48.982
I was upset with the company that did the pour of the concrete.

1197
01:02:49.622 --> 01:02:51.762
He said, "No, it is not the driveway.

1198
01:02:51.822 --> 01:02:55.682
It is your trailer is parked too close to the back of the house."

1199
01:02:56.562 --> 01:03:00.502
It was in the backyard behind the fence, but the tongue and a little bit

1200
01:03:00.542 --> 01:03:04.182
of it was still too close to the house, is what they said.

1201
01:03:04.962 --> 01:03:08.322
So we said, "Okay, it's not the driveway, but we have to get the trailer out."

1202
01:03:09.942 --> 01:03:13.622
We're now on our third year of paying to have the trailer

1203
01:03:13.762 --> 01:03:15.271
stored, which we didn't build the driveway until...

1204
01:03:15.742 --> 01:03:19.042
We just did it in a way to make it make sense and

1205
01:03:19.582 --> 01:03:19.982
reasonable.

1206
01:03:21.562 --> 01:03:21.722
So-

1207
01:03:21.752 --> 01:03:24.342
Can I interject real quick on the trailer? Do you mind?

1208
01:03:25.172 --> 01:03:25.172
Go ahead.

1209
01:03:25.202 --> 01:03:29.162
Okay. So when they came out and cited us two years ago for having the trailer

1210
01:03:29.202 --> 01:03:33.151
too close to our house, they said nothing about our driveway at that point in time.

1211
01:03:33.151 --> 01:03:35.362
They said the driveway was okay when I went in, actually.

1212
01:03:35.442 --> 01:03:39.272
So we now pay $800 a year after

1213
01:03:39.302 --> 01:03:42.762
pouring our driveway, being told that there's no permit needed.

1214
01:03:42.782 --> 01:03:46.142
Which what I would suggest when you're going to make your recommendation is

1215
01:03:46.502 --> 01:03:50.082
permit and zoning should be one thing, because as a

1216
01:03:50.162 --> 01:03:53.642
citizen, if we're told that we don't need a permit, we have

1217
01:03:53.862 --> 01:03:57.602
absolutely no idea what 4.06 means.

1218
01:03:57.662 --> 01:04:01.172
And it doesn't make sense. If you read that to me, it doesn't say anything about

1219
01:04:01.202 --> 01:04:01.272
any of that.

1220
01:04:01.342 --> 01:04:02.822
Any average citizen,

1221
01:04:04.122 --> 01:04:07.552
in my opinion, would not be able to comprehend that that means you cannot expand

1222
01:04:07.602 --> 01:04:08.162
your driveway.

1223
01:04:09.122 --> 01:04:11.582
Just saying, you might want to clarify that.

1224
01:04:11.602 --> 01:04:11.802
The com-

1225
01:04:12.682 --> 01:04:13.222
Go ahead, no.

1226
01:04:13.742 --> 01:04:17.422
The company is reputable. They've been in Warren for 30

1227
01:04:17.442 --> 01:04:17.942
years.

1228
01:04:17.952 --> 01:04:17.952
I-

1229
01:04:18.082 --> 01:04:19.242
They do Warren business.

1230
01:04:19.422 --> 01:04:19.862
Yeah.

1231
01:04:19.922 --> 01:04:20.842
We sent them over.

1232
01:04:27.982 --> 01:04:30.882
If you look at it, we did widen it. And

1233
01:04:32.042 --> 01:04:35.582
when we had the concrete to be poured, we had it smaller, but when

1234
01:04:36.042 --> 01:04:37.362
he clarified that we didn't need

1235
01:04:38.482 --> 01:04:42.382
to do anything permit-wise, it made sense to get the

1236
01:04:42.462 --> 01:04:46.442
trailer around the corner. You back up on an angle. It's a blind spot.

1237
01:04:46.502 --> 01:04:49.502
To get a trailer back there is crazy.

1238
01:04:50.142 --> 01:04:53.972
So we did it as conservative as we could in order to get our driveway,

1239
01:04:55.182 --> 01:04:58.882
so we could get the trailer into the backyard, into the side of the

1240
01:04:58.922 --> 01:04:59.242
house.

1241
01:04:59.502 --> 01:05:02.602
So this ticket came on March 3rd

1242
01:05:03.562 --> 01:05:04.642
or the first-

1243
01:05:05.862 --> 01:05:06.842
The letter in the mail.

1244
01:05:07.122 --> 01:05:09.222
Actually, someone came to our house on March 3rd.

1245
01:05:09.242 --> 01:05:12.842
We had over $10,000 worth of

1246
01:05:12.902 --> 01:05:16.322
water repair done. We had a leaking basement.

1247
01:05:17.262 --> 01:05:20.002
So the gentleman comes on the 3rd and says, "Final

1248
01:05:22.922 --> 01:05:26.562
grade not approved." Gave me a card, which I believe was

1249
01:05:26.781 --> 01:05:30.642
Don Jarvis, but we got a bunch of cards from the few

1250
01:05:30.702 --> 01:05:34.372
trips we took up there to try to get an understanding, and nobody knew what was

1251
01:05:34.382 --> 01:05:37.662
going on. Nobody. We all got pushed into this variance.

1252
01:05:37.722 --> 01:05:39.522
We didn't ask to be in the variance.

1253
01:05:40.602 --> 01:05:44.522
So when I went up there, when I got the citation, or three

1254
01:05:44.582 --> 01:05:48.122
days after that, we got the letter in the mail saying the same date as this

1255
01:05:48.132 --> 01:05:50.442
disapproval. So I thought that it was all connected.

1256
01:05:50.542 --> 01:05:51.372
So I went up to the city,

1257
01:05:53.202 --> 01:05:53.372
and

1258
01:05:55.242 --> 01:05:57.062
I don't know how you guys are hitting us on both sides.

1259
01:05:57.102 --> 01:06:01.062
This was a final grade, March 3rd. The frost frozen, it

1260
01:06:01.102 --> 01:06:04.982
fell down this much. I still have like 15 grand worth of work to

1261
01:06:05.002 --> 01:06:08.942
do to fix my house. The company will not answer my calls.

1262
01:06:08.982 --> 01:06:11.722
They won't respond to me because you guys are denying them.

1263
01:06:11.742 --> 01:06:15.342
They don't want to work with me anymore because you guys did a final

1264
01:06:15.642 --> 01:06:19.592
grade for three inches. The good thing was, when we built the driveway,

1265
01:06:20.462 --> 01:06:23.902
we went ahead and put a garden. Me and my family spent a long time building the

1266
01:06:23.922 --> 01:06:27.522
garden. A lot of dirt brought in, so we can have nice things.

1267
01:06:27.622 --> 01:06:30.602
I have no idea what happened. Nobody got ahold of us.

1268
01:06:30.802 --> 01:06:33.342
Nobody talked to us. Company hasn't reached back out.

1269
01:06:33.842 --> 01:06:34.942
So I took care of it myself.

1270
01:06:35.892 --> 01:06:39.702
I disassembled my garden because we have to get our patio done

1271
01:06:40.322 --> 01:06:43.502
because it is uneven, crazy, and it's dangerous.

1272
01:06:43.542 --> 01:06:46.272
It was like that when we got here. I spent a couple of days trying to fix it a few

1273
01:06:46.322 --> 01:06:49.752
years back. It's time to get done. So we're like, "All right, we're going to save

1274
01:06:49.822 --> 01:06:52.802
up, get the patio done, and get the driveway

1275
01:06:53.002 --> 01:06:56.942
corrected so that we can put our trailer in the backyard." And then we get

1276
01:06:57.062 --> 01:06:58.102
the citation for that.

1277
01:06:59.642 --> 01:07:03.552
We are getting hammered every which way, robberies, every which way, and

1278
01:07:03.562 --> 01:07:07.252
there's no leeway anywhere. And we were told, we were almost

1279
01:07:07.302 --> 01:07:10.642
assured, that going through this process was our

1280
01:07:10.762 --> 01:07:12.942
remedy. We are seeking a remedy.

1281
01:07:13.002 --> 01:07:16.546
We-Cutting up the driveway. What?

1282
01:07:18.466 --> 01:07:19.466
Can I say something?

1283
01:07:19.526 --> 01:07:22.346
We may have made a mistake somewhere along the line, but

1284
01:07:23.246 --> 01:07:24.785
we have been misled too.

1285
01:07:25.756 --> 01:07:26.196
And I just,

1286
01:07:27.706 --> 01:07:28.606
I'm at a loss for words.

1287
01:07:29.546 --> 01:07:32.006
I would like to say, if I can speak as well,

1288
01:07:32.806 --> 01:07:35.706
that I understand your guys' position.

1289
01:07:35.996 --> 01:07:38.306
It's very unfortunate that this one person

1290
01:07:39.626 --> 01:07:43.486
came and got denied, and the associate of the city

1291
01:07:43.566 --> 01:07:47.366
that did it, may I add, in which we submitted the documents to her so

1292
01:07:47.426 --> 01:07:50.826
she told us she would help us, either got quit or

1293
01:07:50.886 --> 01:07:54.646
fired within a one-week period, and then we received a court date.

1294
01:07:55.786 --> 01:07:56.466
This woman-

1295
01:07:56.626 --> 01:08:00.506
She has, by the way, she has concrete missing on her sidewalk, into

1296
01:08:00.546 --> 01:08:04.006
her front porch, and in her driveway, open.

1297
01:08:05.346 --> 01:08:06.096
No concrete at all.

1298
01:08:06.146 --> 01:08:08.606
Regardless, it seems like-

1299
01:08:08.766 --> 01:08:08.776
And plywood

1300
01:08:08.776 --> 01:08:12.286
... a bigger issue for you guys to come through and deny 30 people.

1301
01:08:12.346 --> 01:08:16.337
And, like the gentleman said, if you look at our block, there are so many--

1302
01:08:16.406 --> 01:08:20.306
It's not cookie cutter. There is a dozen houses where their driveways face

1303
01:08:20.366 --> 01:08:24.346
north and south. There's people that have circle

1304
01:08:24.366 --> 01:08:26.486
driveways and a driveway.

1305
01:08:26.547 --> 01:08:26.856
Multiple

1306
01:08:26.856 --> 01:08:27.526
Two of them.

1307
01:08:28.547 --> 01:08:32.406
We have a very wide yard as well. We have a lot of grass. We maintain it.

1308
01:08:32.486 --> 01:08:36.016
We've done a ton of work, and I just think

1309
01:08:37.507 --> 01:08:41.337
the one issue should have maybe been settled with that person and the

1310
01:08:41.387 --> 01:08:45.186
employee instead of now, what is your neighborhood going to

1311
01:08:45.226 --> 01:08:48.927
look like in the property value? You make 30 people rip up their driveways.

1312
01:08:49.286 --> 01:08:53.066
There's garages on that street that face the back of the house.

1313
01:08:53.286 --> 01:08:53.887
They literally-

1314
01:08:53.906 --> 01:08:54.007
It's literally-

1315
01:08:54.476 --> 01:08:54.757
... have a-

1316
01:08:54.856 --> 01:08:55.366
... behind the house

1317
01:08:55.526 --> 01:08:56.026
... parking lot

1318
01:08:56.106 --> 01:08:59.846
The driveway goes from the sidewalk down the edge of the property all the way to

1319
01:08:59.887 --> 01:09:02.746
the back of the property line so they can get in their garage.

1320
01:09:02.806 --> 01:09:05.406
The whole entire thing. They can fit 20 cars in their driveway.

1321
01:09:05.446 --> 01:09:07.326
We can fit two before we expanded it.

1322
01:09:07.366 --> 01:09:09.906
Now I can fit three and maybe force four.

1323
01:09:10.606 --> 01:09:14.406
It's not for business. It's for my kids to have a safe place on that corner.

1324
01:09:14.427 --> 01:09:18.206
It's for me to have to take my two kids to

1325
01:09:18.246 --> 01:09:21.757
school and not have to move a different vehicle to get this vehicle out because my

1326
01:09:21.826 --> 01:09:23.806
other vehicle only fits two people.

1327
01:09:23.865 --> 01:09:24.726
It's

1328
01:09:26.007 --> 01:09:29.927
my property. Last year, we paid for the sidewalk, for the

1329
01:09:29.986 --> 01:09:32.786
city sidewalk. You guys come and tell us we got to pay for the sidewalk.

1330
01:09:32.837 --> 01:09:34.125
$800.

1331
01:09:34.155 --> 01:09:37.066
Sure, we paid the sidewalk. Put our trailer in storage.

1332
01:09:37.746 --> 01:09:40.507
What do you guys do? You guys come on our property this year, our property.

1333
01:09:40.766 --> 01:09:42.166
I guess we don't have property rights.

1334
01:09:42.806 --> 01:09:46.626
And now you guys are demanding that we cut up our driveway or a thousand

1335
01:09:46.686 --> 01:09:47.286
dollars a day.

1336
01:09:48.226 --> 01:09:51.637
It doesn't make sense. Something is wrong with the situation,

1337
01:09:52.366 --> 01:09:53.786
and I'm going to keep digging around.

1338
01:09:54.586 --> 01:09:55.686
I don't know what else to do.

1339
01:09:57.086 --> 01:10:00.166
All we want to do is have our three cars in the driveway and live our life.

1340
01:10:00.206 --> 01:10:04.106
We don't mess with nobody. We pay our taxes that are almost as much as our

1341
01:10:04.146 --> 01:10:07.466
mortgage. It'll only take them one more year or two, and my taxes will be as much

1342
01:10:07.506 --> 01:10:08.126
as my mortgage.

1343
01:10:09.426 --> 01:10:11.946
We get hammered everywhere we go all the way through this.

1344
01:10:12.186 --> 01:10:13.946
I've lived in Warren my whole life.

1345
01:10:14.366 --> 01:10:15.846
Never had any issues, ever,

1346
01:10:16.966 --> 01:10:17.146
ever.

1347
01:10:17.446 --> 01:10:17.606
It's

1348
01:10:18.906 --> 01:10:22.836
just a very unfortunate situation because we're hardworking people, and we're

1349
01:10:22.866 --> 01:10:24.986
just trying to raise our family. Like legit.

1350
01:10:25.026 --> 01:10:28.646
We pay $7,400 a year to live in the city of Warren,

1351
01:10:29.006 --> 01:10:31.176
have had an escrow shortage every single year.

1352
01:10:32.426 --> 01:10:36.376
When that man tried breaking into my house, and I know it has nothing to do

1353
01:10:36.406 --> 01:10:39.896
with this, but I just feel like everybody's resources-

1354
01:10:39.906 --> 01:10:40.435
What needs to be focused on

1355
01:10:40.435 --> 01:10:44.316
... can be done better. I was told by the 911 operator

1356
01:10:44.406 --> 01:10:46.886
to hang up the phone and call my husband.

1357
01:10:47.495 --> 01:10:49.806
A police officer didn't show for an hour and a half.

1358
01:10:50.386 --> 01:10:52.846
I was in the house alone with my three children.

1359
01:10:52.866 --> 01:10:54.506
Barricaded in a room.

1360
01:10:54.686 --> 01:10:58.346
That is what we need to focus on. I understand you guys are in a hard

1361
01:10:58.406 --> 01:11:02.386
position, but I don't think you should be holding hearings when all you can do

1362
01:11:02.446 --> 01:11:05.066
is deny it based on the variance.

1363
01:11:05.146 --> 01:11:06.786
And we were pushed into this process.

1364
01:11:06.906 --> 01:11:10.456
The first time I went there, the gentleman, I believe his name is Gary, which is

1365
01:11:10.886 --> 01:11:13.126
the guy I was told to get ahold of for the non-approval,

1366
01:11:13.926 --> 01:11:17.846
he chuckled and said, "Boy, you got yourself in a mess on this one." He

1367
01:11:17.906 --> 01:11:21.766
said, "Here, take that letter," which if you read it, it's not

1368
01:11:21.806 --> 01:11:24.646
properly spelled. It doesn't make any sense.

1369
01:11:25.556 --> 01:11:29.526
He said, "Put your name on here. We're going to make a copy, and we'll get in touch

1370
01:11:29.566 --> 01:11:33.285
with you." Okay. And then I go to the city because my

1371
01:11:33.326 --> 01:11:36.236
water tank is leaking a week afterwards.

1372
01:11:37.186 --> 01:11:40.436
I go there. I'm acquiring to do it for myself because

1373
01:11:40.466 --> 01:11:43.406
I can't afford to pay the $2,000.

1374
01:11:44.406 --> 01:11:45.086
Big run around.

1375
01:11:47.786 --> 01:11:49.386
I just lost my train of thought, but...

1376
01:11:51.026 --> 01:11:53.286
You don't want to pull a permit for to fix the water heater.

1377
01:11:53.406 --> 01:11:56.426
I haven't pulled the permit because I got this non-approval.

1378
01:11:56.506 --> 01:11:58.806
I got you guys breathing at me about this one.

1379
01:11:59.986 --> 01:12:03.666
I would rather clean up water on my floor than to deal with

1380
01:12:03.686 --> 01:12:05.986
public stuff. It's not my thing.

1381
01:12:06.026 --> 01:12:09.766
We had all this other work we had to get done.

1382
01:12:09.806 --> 01:12:12.146
We put everything on hold because of this situation.

1383
01:12:13.446 --> 01:12:17.166
And now there's no outcome. We're still in

1384
01:12:17.186 --> 01:12:17.546
limbo.

1385
01:12:20.166 --> 01:12:24.126
I just think to hold any more of these hearings is a

1386
01:12:24.146 --> 01:12:27.866
waste of anybody's time because all that's going to happen is everyone's going to

1387
01:12:27.906 --> 01:12:28.666
keep getting denied.

1388
01:12:29.006 --> 01:12:31.106
And he said it last week, and he said it again this week.

1389
01:12:31.166 --> 01:12:32.886
When we were here for our other neighbor-

1390
01:12:33.226 --> 01:12:33.566
But you guys get the chance.

1391
01:12:33.706 --> 01:12:33.846
Right.

1392
01:12:33.886 --> 01:12:36.136
We were told to come here for this. We were told that

1393
01:12:37.546 --> 01:12:40.206
all of us were going to be brought in a room together, and we were going to go

1394
01:12:40.246 --> 01:12:42.546
through this because this was a big problem.

1395
01:12:42.706 --> 01:12:46.666
I was told by all these people, the people behind the counter had

1396
01:12:46.866 --> 01:12:49.866
no idea. They were upset, visibly angry.

1397
01:12:50.126 --> 01:12:51.686
Said, "Don't you tear your driveway out.

1398
01:12:51.746 --> 01:12:54.446
You fight." This is what your employees are saying to us.

1399
01:12:54.886 --> 01:12:57.226
Not yours, but people behind the engineering desk.

1400
01:12:58.506 --> 01:12:58.646
Yes.

1401
01:12:58.706 --> 01:13:01.446
It went on and on. It was the third time.

1402
01:13:01.866 --> 01:13:03.526
Suzanne, I called her on a Thursday.

1403
01:13:04.326 --> 01:13:07.556
Her thing said two days to get ahold of you. So Monday, she called me back.

1404
01:13:07.626 --> 01:13:08.126
I'm at work.

1405
01:13:08.946 --> 01:13:10.355
I'm like, "I don't know what to do about this.

1406
01:13:10.446 --> 01:13:14.406
I'm trying to figure it out." She's like, "Well, if you come in, if you come

1407
01:13:14.446 --> 01:13:18.367
right now, I'll help you."I said, "Well, I can't come right now, but

1408
01:13:18.938 --> 01:13:21.018
I work by myself." I said, "Okay, fine.

1409
01:13:21.158 --> 01:13:24.998
I'll be there at 12:00." I go there, and all she did was she told me

1410
01:13:25.058 --> 01:13:28.838
this, but she led me to believe she was going to help me understand the paperwork.

1411
01:13:28.878 --> 01:13:32.598
She said, "Fill this out, make these measurements, and then I'll postpone your

1412
01:13:32.638 --> 01:13:33.158
court date."

1413
01:13:34.318 --> 01:13:36.818
She'll put a hold on court date. Fine. That's okay.

1414
01:13:38.518 --> 01:13:41.698
So we did that, sent it to her that night. It was a week, we heard nothing.

1415
01:13:41.858 --> 01:13:44.858
We call back. "Sorry, I don't work at the City of Warren no more."

1416
01:13:45.538 --> 01:13:48.608
Nothing. What do we get the next day? Appearance in court.

1417
01:13:49.578 --> 01:13:53.498
No matter what we do, we're getting shut down and nobody knows what's going on, and

1418
01:13:53.538 --> 01:13:55.098
all we're doing is chasing our tail.

1419
01:13:55.158 --> 01:13:57.698
Yesterday was my 14-year wedding anniversary.

1420
01:13:58.038 --> 01:14:01.918
I spent the night preparing for this after kids' baseball practice. It's crazy.

1421
01:14:01.958 --> 01:14:05.218
We're missing our kid's first baseball game today. This is silly.

1422
01:14:05.858 --> 01:14:06.398
This is silly.

1423
01:14:07.238 --> 01:14:10.358
If we did make a mistake, can you guys write us a fine?

1424
01:14:10.378 --> 01:14:13.898
It was not intentional. We thought we did our due diligence.

1425
01:14:13.918 --> 01:14:17.038
When we do everything else, the company says whether we need a permit or

1426
01:14:17.118 --> 01:14:20.748
not. That's what we go on. I didn't know that I'm supposed to do that with every

1427
01:14:20.858 --> 01:14:24.688
single thing. I thought the business would be the one that would be held liable for

1428
01:14:24.698 --> 01:14:26.718
something like that. They led us to believe.

1429
01:14:27.778 --> 01:14:30.478
I guess that's all we got to say. We already know what you guys are going to say to

1430
01:14:30.558 --> 01:14:34.378
us, but it feels good to get that off my chest because I've been sitting on it

1431
01:14:34.418 --> 01:14:36.338
for, I don't know, since March 3rd.

1432
01:14:38.038 --> 01:14:38.838
Thank you for that.

1433
01:14:38.898 --> 01:14:39.238
Thank you.

1434
01:14:39.718 --> 01:14:42.738
Thank you for that explanation. This is a public hearing.

1435
01:14:42.778 --> 01:14:45.198
Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak on this item?

1436
01:14:45.468 --> 01:14:48.168
Please approach and start with your name and address and then your comments.

1437
01:14:48.178 --> 01:14:51.818
John Pozelski, 32052 New Castle. I'm just

1438
01:14:51.858 --> 01:14:54.158
watching this whole thing here, and

1439
01:14:55.218 --> 01:14:59.078
I'm amazed. This is supposed to be a committee of adjustment, right?

1440
01:14:59.618 --> 01:15:03.478
It's not a committee of the laws can't be changed, and they are the way they

1441
01:15:03.518 --> 01:15:06.538
are and nothing can be done about it. It's a committee of adjustment.

1442
01:15:06.918 --> 01:15:08.938
You have to have some common sense here a little bit.

1443
01:15:09.498 --> 01:15:13.428
And the way things are going here, it seems that the attitude is,

1444
01:15:13.878 --> 01:15:17.398
"Okay, we'll just cut up all these driveways, put all these cars in the street,

1445
01:15:17.758 --> 01:15:18.958
and have chaos,

1446
01:15:19.898 --> 01:15:23.818
absolute chaos in the neighborhood." You say that you're doing this to keep up the

1447
01:15:23.898 --> 01:15:26.118
standards of the neighborhood. No, you're not.

1448
01:15:26.578 --> 01:15:28.418
You're not keeping up the standards of the neighborhood.

1449
01:15:28.738 --> 01:15:31.898
These are pieces of property that have 100-foot frontage.

1450
01:15:32.498 --> 01:15:35.078
It's not like it's all jammed together, okay?

1451
01:15:37.058 --> 01:15:41.047
When these subdivisions went in in the '60s, you didn't have

1452
01:15:41.078 --> 01:15:42.298
three and four cars in a

1453
01:15:43.678 --> 01:15:45.678
household, which is very common today.

1454
01:15:46.478 --> 01:15:50.438
And yet nothing seems to change. It's like, okay, this is the

1455
01:15:50.478 --> 01:15:54.168
rules. It's black and white, and don't step out of line because I'm not happy with

1456
01:15:54.218 --> 01:15:55.928
that. You're talking about

1457
01:15:56.538 --> 01:16:00.338
Michelle and Darren should have gone for

1458
01:16:00.678 --> 01:16:03.678
an adjustment for something that a

1459
01:16:04.878 --> 01:16:08.678
permit wasn't required. How do you get an adjustment on something that

1460
01:16:08.718 --> 01:16:12.518
doesn't require a permit? And then you're going to deny them because you say, "You

1461
01:16:12.538 --> 01:16:16.478
didn't get a permit. You didn't get an adjustment." There was no permit that was

1462
01:16:16.518 --> 01:16:19.958
necessary at the time. But yet nobody seems to

1463
01:16:19.998 --> 01:16:20.838
recognize that.

1464
01:16:23.418 --> 01:16:24.218
That's all I got to say.

1465
01:16:27.938 --> 01:16:31.738
Hello, my name is Shantel Burt, and I live at 32548 New

1466
01:16:31.818 --> 01:16:32.258
Castle.

1467
01:16:33.458 --> 01:16:37.327
I was here before. I have gone to a meeting with the mayor to sit down

1468
01:16:37.358 --> 01:16:40.558
with the mayor to try to come up with some resolution with the mayor,

1469
01:16:41.258 --> 01:16:44.518
and again, getting the runaround. We're looking into it. We're looking into it.

1470
01:16:45.138 --> 01:16:48.698
I would personally like to see the mayor, zoning, and the council

1471
01:16:49.178 --> 01:16:53.058
try to sit down to work together because again, in making phone calls, we're

1472
01:16:53.198 --> 01:16:54.738
still getting misinformation.

1473
01:16:55.638 --> 01:16:58.018
One neighbor is getting a $1,000 fine.

1474
01:16:58.047 --> 01:17:01.468
Well, several neighbors are getting the $1,000 fine, where one neighbor is getting

1475
01:17:01.498 --> 01:17:04.838
a $200 fine. Some neighbors are being told that they're grandfathered

1476
01:17:04.918 --> 01:17:07.678
in, where we're being told nobody is grandfathered in.

1477
01:17:08.058 --> 01:17:11.378
So it's still misinformation. So there's no

1478
01:17:11.438 --> 01:17:15.238
clarity in even reaching out to the city's legal department.

1479
01:17:15.778 --> 01:17:19.678
So I think that all of the entities need to work together to try to come up with a

1480
01:17:19.718 --> 01:17:23.668
resolution instead of us coming here in this

1481
01:17:23.698 --> 01:17:27.198
public forum where you guys are clearly saying that you have to

1482
01:17:27.418 --> 01:17:29.708
abide by the rules. And we get that. We understand that.

1483
01:17:30.158 --> 01:17:33.848
But we need a resolution other than

1484
01:17:33.878 --> 01:17:37.758
getting misinformation, because that's all we're getting. I've emailed the mayor.

1485
01:17:37.897 --> 01:17:39.258
I went to that meeting with the mayor.

1486
01:17:39.758 --> 01:17:41.418
People are telling me they're going to call me back.

1487
01:17:41.778 --> 01:17:44.358
City employees have given me their cards.

1488
01:17:44.388 --> 01:17:47.998
And then when I call back, then nobody's responding, nobody's answering.

1489
01:17:48.558 --> 01:17:48.718
So,

1490
01:17:49.658 --> 01:17:51.658
we have no direction. We don't know what to do.

1491
01:17:52.088 --> 01:17:55.718
And even if somebody could tell us some direction, because all of the government

1492
01:17:55.758 --> 01:17:59.578
entities haven't sat down to come up with a resolution, we don't know who to listen

1493
01:17:59.618 --> 01:18:02.118
to. We don't know what it is that we should be doing.

1494
01:18:02.158 --> 01:18:05.858
I'm asking the mayor directly, should we be worried about getting these

1495
01:18:05.918 --> 01:18:09.228
$1,000 a day fines until we come up with a resolution?

1496
01:18:09.858 --> 01:18:12.458
If you're saying that at some point you got to rip your driveway up.

1497
01:18:12.918 --> 01:18:16.698
So how do we save money to rip up a driveway when you're saying you're going to

1498
01:18:16.738 --> 01:18:18.668
charge us $1,000 in fines every day?

1499
01:18:20.418 --> 01:18:23.998
One of my neighbors was absolutely given a fine. She paid the fine.

1500
01:18:24.018 --> 01:18:27.888
Her fine was only $200. And then they said, "Oh, you're grandfathered

1501
01:18:27.938 --> 01:18:31.538
in. We're going to give you your money back." So who's grandfathered in and who

1502
01:18:31.618 --> 01:18:31.878
isn't?

1503
01:18:33.038 --> 01:18:35.798
We need some real clear direction. Thank you.

1504
01:18:38.438 --> 01:18:38.798
Jonathan.

1505
01:18:39.638 --> 01:18:39.998
Jessica.

1506
01:18:40.578 --> 01:18:40.588
Hi.

1507
01:18:40.598 --> 01:18:41.717
Nice to meet you, neighbors.

1508
01:18:41.728 --> 01:18:41.728
Nice to meet you.

1509
01:18:41.938 --> 01:18:43.338
Please go ahead.

1510
01:18:43.598 --> 01:18:46.438
My name is Dan Prater, 32903 Cambridge Drive.

1511
01:18:47.098 --> 01:18:49.558
Is anybody in this board in our neighborhood?

1512
01:18:52.598 --> 01:18:53.538
Does anybody in this room

1513
01:18:54.338 --> 01:18:57.938
not want a driveway installed in the neighborhood?

1514
01:18:59.038 --> 01:19:01.198
Isn't this about the people in the neighborhood,

1515
01:19:02.118 --> 01:19:03.278
not necessarily a board?

1516
01:19:04.898 --> 01:19:08.808
The letter that we received, I received one too. It was very traumatizing.

1517
01:19:09.058 --> 01:19:12.058
I received it on a Friday. I showed up as early as I could on a Monday.

1518
01:19:12.408 --> 01:19:14.538
Extremely traumatizing to my wife and I.

1519
01:19:16.478 --> 01:19:18.918
Our driveway has been in existence for 15

1520
01:19:18.978 --> 01:19:22.840
years.They literally carpet bombed

1521
01:19:23.670 --> 01:19:26.150
our neighborhood because of one person.

1522
01:19:26.160 --> 01:19:26.160
Mm-hmm.

1523
01:19:26.190 --> 01:19:29.970
The correct decision would've been to correct that person.

1524
01:19:30.810 --> 01:19:31.020
Mm-hmm.

1525
01:19:31.110 --> 01:19:34.590
We're all here because of the decision that you made, and now you're making

1526
01:19:34.610 --> 01:19:37.529
decisions to cover up the first decision. Okay?

1527
01:19:37.810 --> 01:19:37.920
Mm-hmm.

1528
01:19:40.210 --> 01:19:43.530
I don't have an appointment here, but I'm here to speak as a citizen and as a

1529
01:19:43.570 --> 01:19:47.180
neighbor of this neighborhood. There's nobody in this room, that I know of,

1530
01:19:48.290 --> 01:19:50.240
that would deny having a driveway

1531
01:19:51.890 --> 01:19:53.250
in our neighborhood. I'm good with it.

1532
01:19:54.750 --> 01:19:54.980
I'm good with it.

1533
01:19:54.980 --> 01:19:55.570
I'm good with it.

1534
01:19:56.610 --> 01:20:00.250
So that's all I have to say. Thank you.

1535
01:20:02.150 --> 01:20:04.610
Okay. Thank you for all those comments, Mr. Jersey.

1536
01:20:06.490 --> 01:20:09.610
Yeah, we have three things to read into the record.

1537
01:20:09.670 --> 01:20:10.110
Yep.

1538
01:20:10.890 --> 01:20:12.050
Plus, it-

1539
01:20:13.170 --> 01:20:13.180
Oh.

1540
01:20:13.210 --> 01:20:13.870
I'm back up.

1541
01:20:16.290 --> 01:20:17.460
Yes, it is

1542
01:20:18.470 --> 01:20:21.870
kind of a ridiculous thing, and I'm sure we all know this

1543
01:20:21.910 --> 01:20:25.590
because we are told, "Pay $90, come here,

1544
01:20:26.150 --> 01:20:29.730
and you may be able to keep it." But we're told, "Oh, well, the law is the

1545
01:20:29.810 --> 01:20:30.150
law."

1546
01:20:31.030 --> 01:20:34.910
Well, then what's the point of coming before the board

1547
01:20:35.530 --> 01:20:38.690
if that's all they're going to say is, "The law is the law," so we

1548
01:20:38.750 --> 01:20:42.580
can't go, "Well, okay, we understand your circumstances,"

1549
01:20:45.630 --> 01:20:49.350
and then say, "Oh, okay, well, we'll allow it because

1550
01:20:50.190 --> 01:20:53.570
it's been 11 years. We'll allow it. It's been 10 years. We'll allow it.

1551
01:20:53.580 --> 01:20:54.650
It's been 20 years."

1552
01:21:01.490 --> 01:21:05.370
So with this, I'll close the public portion in the auditorium here.

1553
01:21:05.480 --> 01:21:07.730
And Mr. Jersey, you've got a couple items to read in.

1554
01:21:07.990 --> 01:21:08.970
Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

1555
01:21:11.770 --> 01:21:15.710
This is from a Douglas and Christine Berg, who reside at

1556
01:21:15.950 --> 01:21:19.610
32921 Newcastle. It says, "To whom it may

1557
01:21:19.670 --> 01:21:22.960
concern, please find and attach our letter in support of the driveway expansion at

1558
01:21:22.970 --> 01:21:26.930
the residence of Jessica and John Smith located at 32922 Newcastle.

1559
01:21:27.610 --> 01:21:31.279
As neighbors who live directly across the street, we wanted to share our

1560
01:21:31.390 --> 01:21:35.090
positive experience and express our full support for the

1561
01:21:35.150 --> 01:21:38.650
improvement. The driveway expansion has been in place for approximately six years,

1562
01:21:39.370 --> 01:21:43.290
has been well-maintained, and has been a positive addition to the appearance of

1563
01:21:43.910 --> 01:21:45.990
the neighborhood. Thank you for your consideration."

1564
01:21:47.450 --> 01:21:48.130
Next one

1565
01:21:49.650 --> 01:21:53.570
is, I believe it's from... Did you guys

1566
01:21:53.650 --> 01:21:53.930
submit an email?

1567
01:21:53.990 --> 01:21:54.790
I just submitted-

1568
01:21:55.010 --> 01:21:55.050
Oh

1569
01:21:55.070 --> 01:21:56.670
... extra stuff in email just-

1570
01:21:56.870 --> 01:21:56.990
Yeah

1571
01:21:57.030 --> 01:21:58.250
... that I didn't originally submit.

1572
01:21:58.360 --> 01:21:58.360
I will-

1573
01:21:58.390 --> 01:21:59.540
You don't have to read it, but-

1574
01:21:59.690 --> 01:22:01.110
I can read it into the record. That's fine.

1575
01:22:01.160 --> 01:22:01.160
Okay.

1576
01:22:01.190 --> 01:22:02.310
So this is from

1577
01:22:03.510 --> 01:22:05.930
Jonathan and Jessica Smith, who reside at

1578
01:22:07.070 --> 01:22:08.310
the said address tonight,

1579
01:22:09.450 --> 01:22:13.350
32922 Newcastle. Says, "To whom it may concern, we appear in

1580
01:22:13.390 --> 01:22:14.130
front of the zoning board-

1581
01:22:14.610 --> 01:22:15.290
Oh, that was for us

1582
01:22:15.310 --> 01:22:15.810
... tomorrow." Wait.

1583
01:22:16.630 --> 01:22:17.400
Is that you guys?

1584
01:22:17.400 --> 01:22:17.680
That's got to be right.

1585
01:22:17.750 --> 01:22:18.200
I was just-

1586
01:22:18.230 --> 01:22:18.590
That was for me.

1587
01:22:18.970 --> 01:22:19.190
Okay.

1588
01:22:19.430 --> 01:22:19.730
Yes.

1589
01:22:19.850 --> 01:22:20.010
All right.

1590
01:22:20.090 --> 01:22:22.890
I asked him. That was just for me to have some talking points.

1591
01:22:23.170 --> 01:22:23.850
Okay, gotcha.

1592
01:22:25.490 --> 01:22:28.250
Basically, I think he covered pretty much everything that's in here.

1593
01:22:28.260 --> 01:22:29.050
No, it wasn't that.

1594
01:22:29.090 --> 01:22:29.630
And then some.

1595
01:22:29.890 --> 01:22:33.490
It was just the notice of how many different properties on there,

1596
01:22:33.750 --> 01:22:37.030
the copies of the business cards that we have received.

1597
01:22:37.090 --> 01:22:37.400
Yep, we got all that. Yep.

1598
01:22:37.430 --> 01:22:39.270
And then just another image of the property-

1599
01:22:39.430 --> 01:22:39.490
We have-

1600
01:22:39.520 --> 01:22:41.150
... because we didn't originally submit that.

1601
01:22:41.180 --> 01:22:41.180
Yeah.

1602
01:22:41.210 --> 01:22:42.910
And those cards were just to show the clarity that-

1603
01:22:42.920 --> 01:22:43.020
Yep

1604
01:22:43.020 --> 01:22:43.530
... you were given.

1605
01:22:44.090 --> 01:22:45.310
All right. Thank you, folks.

1606
01:22:47.090 --> 01:22:48.510
So the next one is from

1607
01:22:54.130 --> 01:22:57.510
Leanne Jones, who resides at 32933 Newcastle.

1608
01:22:58.730 --> 01:23:02.370
She writes to the zoning board, "I'm writing in support of my neighbors, Jessica

1609
01:23:02.390 --> 01:23:05.010
and John Smith, regarding the driveway expansion at their home.

1610
01:23:05.050 --> 01:23:08.130
I have lived across the street from Jessica and John for several years and have

1611
01:23:08.190 --> 01:23:10.850
always found them to be respectful, considerate, and responsible neighbors.

1612
01:23:11.210 --> 01:23:15.050
Their home and property are exceptionally well-maintained, beautifully cared for,

1613
01:23:15.490 --> 01:23:17.250
and are a positive addition to our neighborhood.

1614
01:23:17.730 --> 01:23:21.070
They take great pride in their home, and it clearly shows in the appearance and

1615
01:23:21.150 --> 01:23:25.010
upkeep of their property. The driveway expansion that was completed

1616
01:23:25.050 --> 01:23:28.990
approximately six years ago has never created any issues or concerns for

1617
01:23:29.070 --> 01:23:31.530
me or, to my knowledge, for the surrounding neighbors.

1618
01:23:32.110 --> 01:23:35.690
It has blended naturally with the property and neighborhood and has not

1619
01:23:35.750 --> 01:23:39.490
negatively impacted the appearance, safety, or character of the area in any way.

1620
01:23:39.969 --> 01:23:43.310
In my opinion, requiring them to go through this process

1621
01:23:44.010 --> 01:23:47.830
after so many years seems unnecessary, especially considering the care

1622
01:23:48.670 --> 01:23:52.590
they put into maintaining their property and being good neighbors to those around

1623
01:23:52.630 --> 01:23:52.740
them.

1624
01:23:55.450 --> 01:23:59.060
Jessica and John are exactly the kind of homeowners any community would want, and I

1625
01:23:59.070 --> 01:24:02.170
fully support them and respectfully ask the board to consider approving this matter

1626
01:24:02.270 --> 01:24:02.850
favorably."

1627
01:24:04.210 --> 01:24:05.090
That's all I have, Mr. Chair.

1628
01:24:05.590 --> 01:24:06.800
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Jersey.

1629
01:24:08.010 --> 01:24:11.990
So with that, the public portion is closed, and we're turned over to the board

1630
01:24:12.030 --> 01:24:13.250
for discussion and questions.

1631
01:24:13.390 --> 01:24:13.890
Mr. Chair?

1632
01:24:14.210 --> 01:24:14.950
Yes, Mr. Watts.

1633
01:24:15.710 --> 01:24:17.970
So I'm not going to repeat myself because I know you guys were here.

1634
01:24:18.850 --> 01:24:20.490
And I hear you.

1635
01:24:21.350 --> 01:24:24.150
I hear you loud and clear. I hear everybody loud and clear.

1636
01:24:25.450 --> 01:24:27.230
Now, I don't know what they're telling you at the desk.

1637
01:24:28.370 --> 01:24:29.010
A lot of stuff.

1638
01:24:29.210 --> 01:24:31.410
But, and I understand that. I get it.

1639
01:24:32.170 --> 01:24:36.090
But if they're telling you you can go for a variance, yes, you can.

1640
01:24:36.130 --> 01:24:39.130
That doesn't guarantee you're going to get it, and we have

1641
01:24:39.170 --> 01:24:41.850
criteria that we have to follow,

1642
01:24:43.050 --> 01:24:45.930
that has to fit into, and that's where the problem is.

1643
01:24:46.950 --> 01:24:48.450
Okay? Now, I don't know-

1644
01:24:48.490 --> 01:24:49.950
Should we be aware of the criteria?

1645
01:24:50.490 --> 01:24:52.350
Because maybe we could have addressed some of that stuff.

1646
01:24:52.470 --> 01:24:52.590
I

1647
01:24:54.590 --> 01:24:55.150
don't know.

1648
01:24:55.230 --> 01:24:55.510
I'm sorry.

1649
01:24:55.520 --> 01:24:56.080
I don't know on that, but-

1650
01:24:56.870 --> 01:24:57.390
It's in their packet.

1651
01:24:57.430 --> 01:24:57.690
I forgot to bring it.

1652
01:24:57.810 --> 01:24:58.890
Because I'm con- I

1653
01:25:02.350 --> 01:25:02.630
get it,

1654
01:25:03.990 --> 01:25:05.160
and I don't know

1655
01:25:07.590 --> 01:25:11.570
what the solution is. I hear your other stuff, but we're still in the same

1656
01:25:11.630 --> 01:25:13.630
situation. I don't know what went on with the trailer.

1657
01:25:14.370 --> 01:25:18.290
I had the same problem in my house. I got a violation for my trailer.

1658
01:25:18.890 --> 01:25:21.550
And I had to take care of it. But

1659
01:25:22.886 --> 01:25:23.456
Can I say something?

1660
01:25:23.526 --> 01:25:23.666
Yeah.

1661
01:25:24.046 --> 01:25:25.266
Actually, I won't. I'll just let it go.

1662
01:25:25.446 --> 01:25:25.526
I

1663
01:25:26.366 --> 01:25:30.146
hear you, but we have the criteria we have to follow, and we

1664
01:25:30.206 --> 01:25:33.846
turned down one. We actually turned down two.

1665
01:25:33.906 --> 01:25:34.446
So you have to turn down them all.

1666
01:25:34.686 --> 01:25:36.126
And you have to turn down them all.

1667
01:25:36.446 --> 01:25:37.506
Can we know what the criteria is?

1668
01:25:37.726 --> 01:25:38.006
So-

1669
01:25:38.546 --> 01:25:40.846
You had it in your package. You wrote it.

1670
01:25:41.346 --> 01:25:41.556
Got it.

1671
01:25:41.586 --> 01:25:45.526
Steve's got it. So Steve, did you have something you would like

1672
01:25:45.566 --> 01:25:46.506
to address to us?

1673
01:25:46.586 --> 01:25:50.156
Yeah. I'll put this on the record. The criteria is that

1674
01:25:50.186 --> 01:25:52.306
worksheet. That's what they have to follow.

1675
01:25:52.386 --> 01:25:56.026
You have to have hardships that meet that criteria.

1676
01:25:56.226 --> 01:25:56.566
Why-

1677
01:25:58.286 --> 01:26:00.356
So the questions we answered-

1678
01:26:00.486 --> 01:26:01.546
The questions you answered-

1679
01:26:01.586 --> 01:26:01.776
... understood

1680
01:26:01.806 --> 01:26:04.086
... that's part of the criteria.

1681
01:26:04.236 --> 01:26:04.236
Got it.

1682
01:26:04.266 --> 01:26:05.826
You have to meet that and go from there.

1683
01:26:06.466 --> 01:26:06.496
Understood.

1684
01:26:06.496 --> 01:26:08.086
So you have to fulfill those, so.

1685
01:26:08.146 --> 01:26:09.566
Thank you, Steve. Appreciate that.

1686
01:26:09.626 --> 01:26:10.086
So-

1687
01:26:10.166 --> 01:26:10.426
Never had a clue.

1688
01:26:13.106 --> 01:26:14.106
You know. Stuff on the dirt

1689
01:26:14.116 --> 01:26:15.386
... I'm all set. Thank you.

1690
01:26:15.466 --> 01:26:15.586
Okay.

1691
01:26:15.766 --> 01:26:16.226
Mr. Chair?

1692
01:26:16.426 --> 01:26:17.086
Yes, Mr. Green?

1693
01:26:20.606 --> 01:26:20.976
Again,

1694
01:26:22.766 --> 01:26:26.646
the issue of, and I know sitting up here and saying, "We've got to follow

1695
01:26:26.706 --> 01:26:29.106
the rules and all the stuff," doesn't do s**t for you guys.

1696
01:26:29.516 --> 01:26:32.646
Doesn't make you feel any better, doesn't make the situation any better,

1697
01:26:34.586 --> 01:26:37.406
but we can't grandfather

1698
01:26:38.486 --> 01:26:38.986
a law.

1699
01:26:40.226 --> 01:26:44.186
You can't do it. You can't grandfather a law. You can't do it.

1700
01:26:44.366 --> 01:26:44.566
So,

1701
01:26:46.206 --> 01:26:47.166
well, you can't do it.

1702
01:26:48.206 --> 01:26:48.796
Can I ask?

1703
01:26:48.886 --> 01:26:49.646
So anyways-

1704
01:26:49.906 --> 01:26:50.146
Mm-hmm.

1705
01:26:50.466 --> 01:26:51.346
Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry.

1706
01:26:51.466 --> 01:26:52.126
No, it's okay.

1707
01:26:52.236 --> 01:26:52.766
Do you have a question?

1708
01:26:52.806 --> 01:26:55.026
I really would like to understand.

1709
01:26:55.066 --> 01:26:56.996
No, I'm going to explain. Let me finish because-

1710
01:26:57.046 --> 01:26:58.486
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you said I could speak

1711
01:26:58.506 --> 01:26:58.616
... I can't-

1712
01:26:58.616 --> 01:26:59.205
I apologize.

1713
01:26:59.306 --> 01:27:00.446
No, you're good. So-

1714
01:27:02.166 --> 01:27:02.176
Okay

1715
01:27:02.186 --> 01:27:02.186
...

1716
01:27:03.586 --> 01:27:06.026
I don't think everybody being mad is going to get us anywhere.

1717
01:27:06.706 --> 01:27:09.386
I don't work for the city. I live in the city.

1718
01:27:10.246 --> 01:27:11.866
And what I've been seeing the last...

1719
01:27:12.086 --> 01:27:16.026
I'm new on the board, but what I've been seeing are people paving their

1720
01:27:16.046 --> 01:27:17.206
entire front yards

1721
01:27:18.026 --> 01:27:21.996
and parking 10, 12 cars in it on my street.

1722
01:27:22.326 --> 01:27:25.286
And it's not one house, it's multiple houses.

1723
01:27:25.806 --> 01:27:29.766
So somewhere along the line, whether you like it or not, we need

1724
01:27:29.806 --> 01:27:33.246
to address the driveway issue. Now, you're

1725
01:27:34.186 --> 01:27:37.446
not running the business. You don't have a bunch of people living in your house,

1726
01:27:38.006 --> 01:27:38.266
but

1727
01:27:39.726 --> 01:27:43.026
the more I sit here, the more I start to realize what's going on.

1728
01:27:43.526 --> 01:27:46.426
We're going to send this letter, and it's going to get sent over in a timely

1729
01:27:46.466 --> 01:27:46.766
manner.

1730
01:27:48.226 --> 01:27:51.226
And so someone's going to have to spend some time on it, and we're going to ask

1731
01:27:51.246 --> 01:27:54.306
some specific questions. So in the meantime,

1732
01:27:55.526 --> 01:27:58.246
I don't think they're going to be getting charged $1,000 a day.

1733
01:27:58.326 --> 01:27:59.586
But you don't think. That's a lot of money.

1734
01:27:59.626 --> 01:28:02.946
In the meantime, well, also, I don't work for the city.

1735
01:28:03.295 --> 01:28:03.295
I understand.

1736
01:28:03.306 --> 01:28:07.126
But all I can do is say I want the letter sent, and we're going to vote on it in

1737
01:28:07.506 --> 01:28:10.306
new business, and we're going to put the things we want.

1738
01:28:10.666 --> 01:28:13.846
I want to understand why there's all this confusion.

1739
01:28:14.206 --> 01:28:16.046
Right now I'm figuring out why there's confusion.

1740
01:28:16.366 --> 01:28:18.486
Number one, there should be a permit for a driveway.

1741
01:28:19.466 --> 01:28:23.156
And number two, Steve, I want to ask you this question, if you

1742
01:28:23.266 --> 01:28:23.566
can.

1743
01:28:26.406 --> 01:28:26.986
Let me see.

1744
01:28:27.166 --> 01:28:28.646
Are we allowed to put a trailer in the backyard?

1745
01:28:28.746 --> 01:28:29.506
Try to be-

1746
01:28:29.846 --> 01:28:33.706
As long as it's on hard surface and in the rear yard, five feet from the property

1747
01:28:33.746 --> 01:28:33.946
line.

1748
01:28:34.006 --> 01:28:36.506
Would the hard surface be a driveway?

1749
01:28:38.426 --> 01:28:39.726
It could be cement path.

1750
01:28:40.886 --> 01:28:41.626
So what-

1751
01:28:41.635 --> 01:28:42.366
What are we doing here?

1752
01:28:42.586 --> 01:28:42.786
So,

1753
01:28:43.806 --> 01:28:44.606
well, I'm try-

1754
01:28:44.626 --> 01:28:45.666
Something in the paper says no.

1755
01:28:45.966 --> 01:28:46.506
So we had a

1756
01:28:47.806 --> 01:28:50.616
person come up and say that they spoke to the mayor, and

1757
01:28:51.746 --> 01:28:52.426
I think

1758
01:28:53.826 --> 01:28:56.486
maybe you're starting to figure the problem out.

1759
01:28:58.066 --> 01:28:58.446
Read me?

1760
01:28:59.106 --> 01:28:59.646
Can be.

1761
01:28:59.766 --> 01:29:02.746
I think you're starting to figure part of the problem out

1762
01:29:03.646 --> 01:29:07.626
because this can be solved. My concern is, and with all

1763
01:29:07.646 --> 01:29:10.266
due respect, Steve, to all the departments,

1764
01:29:12.006 --> 01:29:13.366
what's going on?

1765
01:29:14.266 --> 01:29:18.156
So this one person has a list, and I'm trying to be as nice as I can, and I'm

1766
01:29:18.186 --> 01:29:21.426
not that nice, of all these cards of people who went out.

1767
01:29:21.966 --> 01:29:25.826
You mean to tell me not one of those people when the project started, went

1768
01:29:25.866 --> 01:29:29.626
and looked, "Hey, excuse me, homeowner, but that's not going to

1769
01:29:29.686 --> 01:29:30.106
pass."

1770
01:29:30.986 --> 01:29:34.696
Why did nobody say that? I'm trying to figure out what's going on, Steve, and I'm

1771
01:29:35.406 --> 01:29:38.955
being nice. All those people, there's seven cards on that

1772
01:29:39.066 --> 01:29:42.696
one. Not one person looked at that and

1773
01:29:42.746 --> 01:29:45.396
said, "Do you realize that's a violation of the

1774
01:29:46.226 --> 01:29:47.586
ordinance, so don't do it?"

1775
01:29:48.686 --> 01:29:49.406
Everybody who we

1776
01:29:50.626 --> 01:29:54.186
spoke to the last two months has come up here and saying, "Everybody said it was

1777
01:29:54.246 --> 01:29:55.706
great. Everybody said we were cool."

1778
01:29:56.666 --> 01:29:56.806
Well-

1779
01:29:57.126 --> 01:29:57.496
And then they get-

1780
01:29:57.516 --> 01:29:59.626
... I can't speak for the people that were there.

1781
01:29:59.706 --> 01:30:00.846
Then who can speak for them?

1782
01:30:01.206 --> 01:30:02.646
I don't know who the people are.

1783
01:30:02.676 --> 01:30:05.286
Well, I want to know who can speak for them, Steve, because-

1784
01:30:05.346 --> 01:30:06.666
They can speak for themselves.

1785
01:30:06.986 --> 01:30:07.856
Well, no, who do they-

1786
01:30:07.856 --> 01:30:08.706
I can't speak for any individual.

1787
01:30:08.746 --> 01:30:08.936
Wait, wait.

1788
01:30:08.946 --> 01:30:09.406
Mr. Green.

1789
01:30:09.506 --> 01:30:10.486
I want to make a clarification.

1790
01:30:10.586 --> 01:30:13.126
I don't need a clarification. I didn't ask for a clarification.

1791
01:30:15.346 --> 01:30:18.746
Those cards pursuant to the homeowner, the petitioner, were given

1792
01:30:18.866 --> 01:30:19.386
after.

1793
01:30:20.626 --> 01:30:21.746
Not before.

1794
01:30:25.286 --> 01:30:28.946
Well, when they came out for approval of their

1795
01:30:29.066 --> 01:30:32.366
driveway, that was before the driveway was poured.

1796
01:30:33.426 --> 01:30:36.676
And when they see forms put... Wait, wait, wait. Am I the stupid guy?

1797
01:30:37.766 --> 01:30:41.275
And they've got forms put in. We've had multiple ones,

1798
01:30:41.346 --> 01:30:45.186
Jennifer, of people who have forms put in, and they're told not to

1799
01:30:45.226 --> 01:30:49.096
pour, or they're told they can pour based on information they're getting

1800
01:30:49.126 --> 01:30:53.046
from the city. I don't care when they got the cards or not, and

1801
01:30:53.106 --> 01:30:55.386
you can protect the administration because that's your job.

1802
01:30:55.946 --> 01:30:58.986
But I've been sitting here listening to this for the last year.

1803
01:30:59.926 --> 01:31:01.126
Something's not right.

1804
01:31:02.446 --> 01:31:03.536
Something's not right.

1805
01:31:03.766 --> 01:31:06.946
Where in this whole system is somebody saying

1806
01:31:08.966 --> 01:31:12.926
that... Who is in charge? Who's the person who's

1807
01:31:12.946 --> 01:31:15.046
supposed to say, "We're going to take care of this"?

1808
01:31:15.686 --> 01:31:18.226
I can speak for myself as a zoning inspector.

1809
01:31:18.566 --> 01:31:21.326
If I go out, I'm quoting zoning laws.

1810
01:31:21.706 --> 01:31:25.226
If someone has an electrical problem, I don't say anything.

1811
01:31:25.286 --> 01:31:28.926
That's not me. I don't try to correct someone else's problem.

1812
01:31:28.986 --> 01:31:32.744
If they have a building issue, I don't try correcting itI don't know who those

1813
01:31:32.774 --> 01:31:35.414
inspectors are. Engineering has inspectors.

1814
01:31:35.474 --> 01:31:37.594
We have a lot of inspectors in the city.

1815
01:31:37.654 --> 01:31:38.434
This is a zoning-

1816
01:31:40.034 --> 01:31:40.334
Right

1817
01:31:40.344 --> 01:31:44.194
... ordinance issue, and we do not go out and inspect

1818
01:31:44.774 --> 01:31:46.934
in the field for this type of thing.

1819
01:31:47.034 --> 01:31:50.754
So I can almost guarantee none of those seven cards are

1820
01:31:50.874 --> 01:31:53.374
zoning inspectors that know the zoning ordinance.

1821
01:31:55.334 --> 01:31:56.654
How many zoning inspectors are there?

1822
01:31:58.014 --> 01:31:58.394
A lot.

1823
01:31:59.074 --> 01:32:02.014
We have seven zoning inspectors.

1824
01:32:02.114 --> 01:32:02.944
Okay, there's-

1825
01:32:03.314 --> 01:32:03.684
There's zoning inspectors-

1826
01:32:03.854 --> 01:32:04.934
Yep, these are zoning-

1827
01:32:05.074 --> 01:32:05.584
Hold on, hold on. Don't speak

1828
01:32:05.584 --> 01:32:05.834
... that's me.

1829
01:32:05.994 --> 01:32:06.394
Thank you.

1830
01:32:06.554 --> 01:32:07.134
I wasn't out-

1831
01:32:07.214 --> 01:32:07.854
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait

1832
01:32:07.914 --> 01:32:09.084
... I know. I wasn't out at your house-

1833
01:32:09.094 --> 01:32:09.614
Excuse me, Steve.

1834
01:32:10.794 --> 01:32:11.614
Further discussion.

1835
01:32:11.674 --> 01:32:14.814
Here. Petitioner, please don't. You're hurting yourself.

1836
01:32:16.234 --> 01:32:18.814
So that's almost all of them,

1837
01:32:20.154 --> 01:32:24.054
and somebody in that group saw that this whatever

1838
01:32:24.374 --> 01:32:24.474
there-

1839
01:32:24.594 --> 01:32:25.974
I don't know when they were out there.

1840
01:32:26.114 --> 01:32:30.094
I know he has my card, and I know I was not out at this property.

1841
01:32:30.134 --> 01:32:33.834
So you can pick up cards at our desk all you want.

1842
01:32:34.094 --> 01:32:36.574
A lot of years ago. All right. Somewhere there's a problem. I'm not an idiot.

1843
01:32:36.733 --> 01:32:37.114
So.

1844
01:32:37.174 --> 01:32:39.234
Somewhere there's a problem, and it's not us.

1845
01:32:40.974 --> 01:32:43.794
There's a problem somewhere. Somebody's dropping the ball-

1846
01:32:44.014 --> 01:32:44.054
I-

1847
01:32:44.364 --> 01:32:45.514
... on all of this stuff.

1848
01:32:45.874 --> 01:32:47.734
I don't disagree with you on this.

1849
01:32:48.134 --> 01:32:48.294
Okay.

1850
01:32:48.314 --> 01:32:52.194
And I do think there should be some clarity, but the ordinance is

1851
01:32:52.234 --> 01:32:52.744
what the ordinance is-

1852
01:32:52.754 --> 01:32:53.524
Because to be honest with you-

1853
01:32:53.524 --> 01:32:53.704
... and go from there

1854
01:32:53.754 --> 01:32:57.204
... I'm getting tired of sitting up here and have people b******g at me because of

1855
01:32:57.234 --> 01:33:01.074
something that I don't control, and then when I ask people who

1856
01:33:01.134 --> 01:33:03.214
controls it, everybody says, "Not me."

1857
01:33:05.274 --> 01:33:09.134
Well, I control part of the ordinance on enforcement, and I'll go

1858
01:33:09.194 --> 01:33:09.574
from there.

1859
01:33:09.654 --> 01:33:10.124
No, I get it.

1860
01:33:10.124 --> 01:33:11.194
And I will put my-

1861
01:33:11.254 --> 01:33:12.074
I'll give you that much.

1862
01:33:12.994 --> 01:33:13.694
Okay. Thank you.

1863
01:33:14.654 --> 01:33:16.094
Any other questions or discussion?

1864
01:33:16.294 --> 01:33:16.654
Mr. Chair?

1865
01:33:16.934 --> 01:33:18.414
Yes, Mr. Lindsay.

1866
01:33:18.534 --> 01:33:20.214
I just want to make a comment.

1867
01:33:22.254 --> 01:33:26.154
We all on the board, we hear the concerns that these citizens

1868
01:33:26.194 --> 01:33:26.754
are having.

1869
01:33:28.354 --> 01:33:29.714
But at the end of the day,

1870
01:33:30.894 --> 01:33:34.774
whether you guys as homeowners know it or not, right?

1871
01:33:34.854 --> 01:33:37.894
I'm not going to get into that. There is an ordinance. Okay?

1872
01:33:38.454 --> 01:33:42.253
There is an ordinance. You have to have a permit

1873
01:33:42.263 --> 01:33:45.514
to extend a driveway past the garage line.

1874
01:33:45.614 --> 01:33:49.374
That's the ordinance, okay? The fact that we're all up here

1875
01:33:49.494 --> 01:33:52.904
and this is happening is because cement was poured,

1876
01:33:53.494 --> 01:33:56.884
and there is no permit for it. So when something is

1877
01:33:56.974 --> 01:33:59.724
outside of the ordinance, it requires a variance.

1878
01:33:59.904 --> 01:34:03.574
That is what we are here to decide, whether we will grant the variance or

1879
01:34:03.594 --> 01:34:07.284
not. I don't know what led this whole neighborhood to getting

1880
01:34:07.294 --> 01:34:10.514
cement poured without permits, whether it was

1881
01:34:10.574 --> 01:34:13.854
contractors, whether it's people at the city.

1882
01:34:13.954 --> 01:34:17.654
I don't know, okay? And that's where we can empathize with you guys.

1883
01:34:17.714 --> 01:34:20.854
We feel bad, but our job is to say

1884
01:34:20.914 --> 01:34:24.854
we don't set the permit. The permit's required.

1885
01:34:25.254 --> 01:34:28.534
A permit wasn't pulled, so that's why we're having this conversation, okay?

1886
01:34:29.064 --> 01:34:31.344
I'm not going to repeat my former comments.

1887
01:34:31.514 --> 01:34:33.884
I think we've all kind of said our piece on these things,

1888
01:34:34.714 --> 01:34:38.254
but I want you guys to understand the accountability has to be with the homeowner

1889
01:34:38.294 --> 01:34:41.894
at the end of the day, whether it's right or wrong. Permits are required.

1890
01:34:41.954 --> 01:34:43.554
Permits weren't pulled. Okay?

1891
01:34:44.214 --> 01:34:47.744
Can I just ask a question? It's just I understand that fully.

1892
01:34:47.744 --> 01:34:49.874
Unfortunately, there's no question that was directed to you.

1893
01:34:49.894 --> 01:34:50.454
If somebody has-

1894
01:34:50.554 --> 01:34:50.774
Okay

1895
01:34:50.814 --> 01:34:51.074
... a question.

1896
01:34:51.154 --> 01:34:53.614
Yeah. I'm ready to move forward on this.

1897
01:34:54.014 --> 01:34:57.974
Well, Mr. Lindsay, I know what you mean, but no permits

1898
01:34:58.014 --> 01:34:59.774
are required for the driveway.

1899
01:35:00.634 --> 01:35:01.514
Past the...

1900
01:35:02.154 --> 01:35:02.254
No.

1901
01:35:03.134 --> 01:35:03.374
No.

1902
01:35:03.714 --> 01:35:04.054
Zero.

1903
01:35:04.174 --> 01:35:04.814
Zero.

1904
01:35:05.814 --> 01:35:06.334
Zero permits.

1905
01:35:06.374 --> 01:35:08.214
That's why we didn't give them a permit to go.

1906
01:35:08.654 --> 01:35:08.934
Okay.

1907
01:35:10.194 --> 01:35:10.954
Just keep it.

1908
01:35:11.934 --> 01:35:15.414
So no one's coming out to inspect anything because there's no permits.

1909
01:35:17.394 --> 01:35:17.823
And we're allowing-

1910
01:35:17.823 --> 01:35:20.684
I mean, well, it is on the homeowner to know what the ordinances are-

1911
01:35:20.744 --> 01:35:20.864
... to get a trailer

1912
01:35:20.864 --> 01:35:22.754
... and how far they can go with their driveway.

1913
01:35:23.294 --> 01:35:24.504
I agree, but

1914
01:35:26.714 --> 01:35:30.574
only for engineering standards past the sidewalk is there a

1915
01:35:30.594 --> 01:35:31.334
permit required.

1916
01:35:33.034 --> 01:35:33.614
And your garage.

1917
01:35:33.654 --> 01:35:34.454
Doesn't that mean we're free-

1918
01:35:34.534 --> 01:35:35.214
Yeah, past the garage

1919
01:35:35.224 --> 01:35:36.004
... to do what we want to do?

1920
01:35:36.004 --> 01:35:36.754
Mr. Chairman?

1921
01:35:37.754 --> 01:35:38.424
Yes, Mr. Watts.

1922
01:35:40.174 --> 01:35:42.064
If there's no one else, I'm ready to move forward.

1923
01:35:42.084 --> 01:35:43.394
Well, is there another comment over here or no?

1924
01:35:43.434 --> 01:35:46.794
I just wanted to add that's why I was supporting these

1925
01:35:46.814 --> 01:35:50.613
petitioners on a case-by-case basis, because no permit was required.

1926
01:35:50.934 --> 01:35:54.254
It's up to the board to decide whether a variance is warranted based on the

1927
01:35:54.394 --> 01:35:56.914
uniqueness or not of the property.

1928
01:35:57.324 --> 01:36:00.024
This is another case where I think it's tastefully done.

1929
01:36:00.754 --> 01:36:03.974
My problem with the driveway extensions are when they extend in front of the front

1930
01:36:04.034 --> 01:36:07.374
porch and on that side of the yard. This is just on the other side to get into your

1931
01:36:07.414 --> 01:36:10.134
backyard. So again, I have no problem with this.

1932
01:36:10.874 --> 01:36:11.374
Mr. Chair?

1933
01:36:12.254 --> 01:36:12.724
Yes, Mr. Christian.

1934
01:36:12.754 --> 01:36:15.214
Real quickly, just to that point, Mr.

1935
01:36:15.434 --> 01:36:17.614
Safaya, I think I can't speak on Mr.

1936
01:36:18.714 --> 01:36:21.874
Cliff's behalf, but he brought up that point with the last meeting.

1937
01:36:22.074 --> 01:36:25.974
He was okay with it going into the side setback versus it going

1938
01:36:26.014 --> 01:36:29.654
into the front setback. Two different animals, but Mr.

1939
01:36:29.854 --> 01:36:33.644
Cliff did bring that point what you just raised up, too, at the last meeting. So.

1940
01:36:33.674 --> 01:36:37.174
Sure. And of course, it just depends on the uniqueness of the property.

1941
01:36:37.534 --> 01:36:40.794
Each petition is a unique, independent

1942
01:36:41.334 --> 01:36:42.354
decision.

1943
01:36:45.554 --> 01:36:48.734
Mr. Watts? Not hearing any other discussion or question.

1944
01:36:48.934 --> 01:36:49.974
I'm prepared to make a motion.

1945
01:36:50.474 --> 01:36:51.534
Yes, please.

1946
01:36:51.634 --> 01:36:54.714
My motion would be to deny to retain the

1947
01:36:54.774 --> 01:36:58.754
widened portion of the driveway that extends 12 foot 11 inches from the

1948
01:36:58.794 --> 01:36:59.564
southwest corner

1949
01:37:01.374 --> 01:37:05.274
of the garage toward the south property line, and the reasons are

1950
01:37:05.294 --> 01:37:08.694
the same as the last. Not a burden. It was

1951
01:37:08.754 --> 01:37:09.634
self-imposed.

1952
01:37:10.654 --> 01:37:11.753
Property's not unique.

1953
01:37:14.014 --> 01:37:16.114
It is a detriment in my opinion,

1954
01:37:16.954 --> 01:37:19.714
and it was not a necessary add-on.

1955
01:37:21.894 --> 01:37:22.234
Support.

1956
01:37:24.114 --> 01:37:27.974
So we have a motion to deny by Mr. Watts, and with

1957
01:37:27.994 --> 01:37:30.894
support by Mr. Green for the reasons stated in the motion.

1958
01:37:31.634 --> 01:37:32.254
Mr. Watts?

1959
01:37:32.574 --> 01:37:33.054
Mr. Watts?

1960
01:37:33.214 --> 01:37:34.754
Yes, to deny for the reasons stated.

1961
01:37:35.854 --> 01:37:36.334
Mr. Green?

1962
01:37:36.404 --> 01:37:39.722
YesMr. Lindsay?

1963
01:37:40.122 --> 01:37:42.282
Yes, to deny for the reasons stated in the motion.

1964
01:37:43.022 --> 01:37:43.602
Mr. Assessor?

1965
01:37:45.142 --> 01:37:47.222
Yes, to deny for the reasons stated in the motion.

1966
01:37:47.522 --> 01:37:48.042
Mr. Perry?

1967
01:37:48.482 --> 01:37:49.282
Yes, to deny.

1968
01:37:51.122 --> 01:37:51.742
Mr. Safaya?

1969
01:37:52.362 --> 01:37:54.762
No. The practical difficulty standard has been met.

1970
01:37:57.182 --> 01:38:00.342
Mr. Jersey also votes no. I believe the practical difficulty standard was met.

1971
01:38:00.362 --> 01:38:01.042
Chairman Nostovich?

1972
01:38:02.162 --> 01:38:06.002
I also vote no. I think the practical difficulty standard was set.

1973
01:38:06.922 --> 01:38:10.522
So unfortunately, your request was denied on a five to three

1974
01:38:10.602 --> 01:38:11.042
vote.

1975
01:38:15.082 --> 01:38:16.962
Understood. You guys,

1976
01:38:18.062 --> 01:38:21.562
I would recommend finding a different way to deal with it, because the news will be

1977
01:38:21.662 --> 01:38:25.232
here, and it's just the most ridiculous

1978
01:38:25.262 --> 01:38:28.971
thing. There is no point in taking $95 of your citizens'

1979
01:38:29.042 --> 01:38:31.342
money when you already know you're going to say no.

1980
01:38:33.122 --> 01:38:33.922
You guys have a good night.

1981
01:38:36.322 --> 01:38:37.502
Thank you for your time.

1982
01:38:37.562 --> 01:38:39.142
Takes us to item number 11.

1983
01:38:39.922 --> 01:38:43.892
Item 11. Item 11, applicant Wayne Craft Incorporated, Representative

1984
01:38:43.962 --> 01:38:46.282
Jason McFall. Common description

1985
01:38:46.482 --> 01:38:50.182
32326 Exeter. Variance has requested permission

1986
01:38:50.282 --> 01:38:54.262
to allow a four foot, four inch by 18 foot,

1987
01:38:54.422 --> 01:38:58.102
11 inch, 82 square foot covered porch to extend to

1988
01:38:58.142 --> 01:39:01.782
within 22 feet, eight inches of the front property line, in addition

1989
01:39:01.882 --> 01:39:05.522
to a 484 square foot detached garage and

1990
01:39:05.762 --> 01:39:09.582
160 square foot enclosed patio in the rear yard for a total

1991
01:39:09.662 --> 01:39:12.432
of 726 square feet of accessory floor structure.

1992
01:39:14.342 --> 01:39:16.702
My name is Jason from Wayne Craft at

1993
01:39:16.882 --> 01:39:18.462
13525

1994
01:39:19.362 --> 01:39:23.122
Wayne Road in Livonia. And I'm here to get

1995
01:39:23.722 --> 01:39:27.702
a variance approved for the replacement of a front porch awning on the house that

1996
01:39:27.742 --> 01:39:31.182
was already there. It looks like it's been there from probably the '60s or the

1997
01:39:31.192 --> 01:39:31.782
'70s.

1998
01:39:32.882 --> 01:39:33.502
And then

1999
01:39:34.662 --> 01:39:37.402
it looks to be like an existing rear,

2000
01:39:40.022 --> 01:39:43.832
hybrid sunroom type structure on the back that's got a wood roof and

2001
01:39:43.862 --> 01:39:47.742
then sunroom walls based on the photos that I had seen,

2002
01:39:48.442 --> 01:39:51.602
that we did not do, but it looks like it's been there for quite some time.

2003
01:39:53.102 --> 01:39:56.922
But we just wish to do the awnings for the family at

2004
01:39:56.962 --> 01:39:57.362
this home,

2005
01:39:58.242 --> 01:40:01.802
just basically as a replacement for what's already there, just to cover their

2006
01:40:02.282 --> 01:40:03.462
porch and whatnot.

2007
01:40:03.642 --> 01:40:04.202
Okay.

2008
01:40:05.122 --> 01:40:08.062
Thank you for that explanation. This is a public hearing.

2009
01:40:08.102 --> 01:40:10.522
Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak on this item?

2010
01:40:12.682 --> 01:40:14.422
Not seeing any, are turned over to the board.

2011
01:40:15.662 --> 01:40:16.142
Mr. Chair.

2012
01:40:16.762 --> 01:40:17.402
Yes, Mr. Watts?

2013
01:40:17.542 --> 01:40:21.302
I want to clarify, looking at the photo of the home, you're

2014
01:40:21.342 --> 01:40:23.962
replacing the awnings that are existing awnings?

2015
01:40:24.022 --> 01:40:27.162
Yeah, there should be an ex-- I believe it's an existing front porch awning.

2016
01:40:27.222 --> 01:40:29.022
Yeah. Yep, that's what I'm looking at.

2017
01:40:29.032 --> 01:40:29.032
Yeah.

2018
01:40:29.082 --> 01:40:30.322
So you're replacing those.

2019
01:40:30.362 --> 01:40:30.502
Yes.

2020
01:40:30.542 --> 01:40:32.762
So technically, there is no real change.

2021
01:40:33.262 --> 01:40:34.412
No, it's just going to be the same stuff.

2022
01:40:34.412 --> 01:40:35.922
Just replacing them. Okay. Thank you.

2023
01:40:39.942 --> 01:40:40.542
Mr. Chair?

2024
01:40:40.862 --> 01:40:41.631
Yes, Mr. Jersey?

2025
01:40:41.802 --> 01:40:45.622
If no other board members have anything additional to say,

2026
01:40:45.802 --> 01:40:46.762
prepared to make a motion.

2027
01:40:48.062 --> 01:40:51.922
I'd like to make a motion to grant the petitioners permission

2028
01:40:51.982 --> 01:40:55.262
to allow a four foot, four inch by 18 foot,

2029
01:40:55.742 --> 01:40:57.571
11 inch, 82 square foot covered

2030
01:40:58.742 --> 01:41:02.582
front porch to extend to within 22 feet, eight inches of the

2031
01:41:02.622 --> 01:41:06.582
front property line, in addition to a 484 square

2032
01:41:06.682 --> 01:41:10.582
foot detached garage and 160 square foot enclosed patio in the rear

2033
01:41:10.642 --> 01:41:13.902
yard for a total of 726 square feet of accessory

2034
01:41:14.322 --> 01:41:18.102
structure floor area due to the fact it's not a detriment to the area and the size

2035
01:41:18.122 --> 01:41:18.862
and shape of the lot.

2036
01:41:19.362 --> 01:41:20.602
Support.

2037
01:41:20.692 --> 01:41:20.692
Support.

2038
01:41:20.692 --> 01:41:23.422
So we have a motion by Mr. Jersey, supported by Mr.

2039
01:41:23.482 --> 01:41:26.402
Assessor, to approve the request for the reasons stated.

2040
01:41:27.002 --> 01:41:29.882
Mr. Jersey votes yes for the reasons stated in the motion. Mr. Assessor?

2041
01:41:30.442 --> 01:41:32.042
Yes, for the reasons stated in the motion.

2042
01:41:32.282 --> 01:41:32.822
Mr. Perry?

2043
01:41:33.342 --> 01:41:34.672
Yes, for the reasons stated in the motion.

2044
01:41:34.742 --> 01:41:35.382
Mr. Watts?

2045
01:41:35.542 --> 01:41:36.862
Yes, for the reasons stated in the motion.

2046
01:41:36.962 --> 01:41:37.402
Mr. Green?

2047
01:41:37.582 --> 01:41:37.842
Yes.

2048
01:41:39.402 --> 01:41:40.022
Mr. Lindsay?

2049
01:41:40.402 --> 01:41:41.462
Yes, for the reasons stated.

2050
01:41:42.042 --> 01:41:42.742
Mr. Safaya?

2051
01:41:43.102 --> 01:41:44.642
Yes, for the reasons stated in the motion.

2052
01:41:44.682 --> 01:41:45.762
And Chairman Nostovich?

2053
01:41:46.062 --> 01:41:49.732
Yes, for reasons stated in the motion. Your request has been approved.

2054
01:41:49.882 --> 01:41:51.182
All right. Thank you very much.

2055
01:41:58.541 --> 01:42:01.842
Takes us to item 12. Applicant, Steven Paris.

2056
01:42:03.182 --> 01:42:06.942
Representative Steven Paris. Common description 21308 Sunset.

2057
01:42:07.882 --> 01:42:11.522
Variance has requested permission to allow the dwelling to be

2058
01:42:11.662 --> 01:42:13.602
used as a two-family residence in an

2059
01:42:14.582 --> 01:42:15.862
R1C zoning district.

2060
01:42:17.302 --> 01:42:19.392
Let's start with your name and address and then-

2061
01:42:19.422 --> 01:42:20.252
Hello, my name... Oh, sorry.

2062
01:42:20.322 --> 01:42:21.122
And your request.

2063
01:42:21.522 --> 01:42:24.392
Hello, my name is Steve Paris. I live at 21308 Sunset Avenue.

2064
01:42:24.542 --> 01:42:28.342
I've resided there since 2018. I'm coming to you

2065
01:42:28.382 --> 01:42:31.112
guys today because I purchased a home that was built in 1954.

2066
01:42:32.362 --> 01:42:34.202
It was built as a two-story duplex,

2067
01:42:35.062 --> 01:42:38.842
so it's almost a nearly identical footprint on the first floor and second

2068
01:42:38.862 --> 01:42:42.792
floor. It has two electric meters, two gas meters, two electric

2069
01:42:42.882 --> 01:42:43.302
panels.

2070
01:42:44.202 --> 01:42:47.682
It has two boilers, two completely different, separate

2071
01:42:48.122 --> 01:42:50.122
units that can't be combined

2072
01:42:50.962 --> 01:42:54.722
without spending an exuberant amount of money to reconfigure the home.

2073
01:42:56.542 --> 01:42:58.742
I

2074
01:42:59.322 --> 01:43:03.262
purchased the home in 2018. The person

2075
01:43:03.302 --> 01:43:06.002
who I purchased the home from, he purchased the home in 1989.

2076
01:43:06.742 --> 01:43:10.342
In 1989, he had canceled the contract

2077
01:43:10.962 --> 01:43:13.072
with the people who were renting the home.

2078
01:43:13.542 --> 01:43:17.362
The home has been a multifamily unit rental since 1955.

2079
01:43:17.442 --> 01:43:21.042
It was built that way. I purchased it with that understanding that it was a

2080
01:43:21.082 --> 01:43:24.622
multifamily unit. I live there. I've lived there since 2018.

2081
01:43:24.722 --> 01:43:28.562
I do not rent out the second-floor unit, but to modify the home would be

2082
01:43:28.602 --> 01:43:32.362
extremely expensive. To not modify the home would waste

2083
01:43:32.422 --> 01:43:36.342
almost 1,000 square foot of space in my home that I purchased and paid

2084
01:43:36.382 --> 01:43:36.512
for.

2085
01:43:38.002 --> 01:43:41.122
And I'm coming here today because I'd like to keep the home as a multifamily unit

2086
01:43:41.182 --> 01:43:43.962
because the home directly behind me is a triplex.

2087
01:43:44.522 --> 01:43:47.132
The home three doors down from, or five doors down from me, because there's two

2088
01:43:47.162 --> 01:43:49.796
empty houses... is a duplex.

2089
01:43:50.666 --> 01:43:54.426
There's about 40 rental properties on my street and the street behind me.

2090
01:43:55.666 --> 01:43:56.326
And

2091
01:43:58.086 --> 01:44:01.986
I have no intention on renting the home out, but like I said, I did purchase the

2092
01:44:02.026 --> 01:44:04.866
home with the opportunity to be able to do that.

2093
01:44:06.226 --> 01:44:08.046
But the home is not properly

2094
01:44:08.926 --> 01:44:11.506
allocated as a multi-family unit in the City of Warren.

2095
01:44:12.166 --> 01:44:15.876
But like I said, there is two kitchens, there's two

2096
01:44:15.986 --> 01:44:18.626
completely separate units. They're identical. They're not side by side.

2097
01:44:18.806 --> 01:44:20.376
They're up and down, first floor, second floor.

2098
01:44:21.026 --> 01:44:24.886
So there's a completely separate furnace system run up to the second floor

2099
01:44:24.986 --> 01:44:28.786
to the first floor. Like I said, there's water heaters, everything's separate.

2100
01:44:28.896 --> 01:44:31.406
Plumbing's separate, everything's completely separate.

2101
01:44:32.266 --> 01:44:35.466
And so, the city is saying that they would like me to

2102
01:44:35.486 --> 01:44:38.955
remove the stove from the second floor to make it not a multi-family home,

2103
01:44:39.706 --> 01:44:43.666
is what I've been told. After all my electrical on the first floor, there was

2104
01:44:43.726 --> 01:44:47.306
a smoke damage fire to the home, so that's kind of what brought this up.

2105
01:44:47.586 --> 01:44:51.446
As I'm renovating the home with no insurance money because 10 months later,

2106
01:44:51.546 --> 01:44:55.166
State Farm says, "You have to pay me any money on this home." Well, anything above

2107
01:44:55.176 --> 01:44:58.646
$50,000. So I'm personally footing all these bills myself.

2108
01:44:59.386 --> 01:45:01.486
I ran all new electric wire, I ran new gas,

2109
01:45:02.306 --> 01:45:05.606
completely repaired everything on the second floor. Everything's been approved.

2110
01:45:05.636 --> 01:45:09.546
And then the city is coming to me and asking me to demolish the second-floor unit

2111
01:45:09.566 --> 01:45:12.746
and just make it an empty voided space or spend probably approximately

2112
01:45:12.756 --> 01:45:15.376
$200,000 in renovations converting the home.

2113
01:45:15.426 --> 01:45:19.146
I don't have $200,000 for renovations, and I didn't buy the home with the

2114
01:45:19.186 --> 01:45:22.346
understanding that it was two separate or one unit.

2115
01:45:22.426 --> 01:45:25.076
And, personally, at this point, I couldn't afford to modify the home

2116
01:45:26.126 --> 01:45:29.126
to be one unit. So I'm basically asking you guys to grant me the

2117
01:45:29.746 --> 01:45:33.666
permission to adequately zone this home for what it

2118
01:45:33.706 --> 01:45:37.646
was built as in 1954. So that's what I'm here for today.

2119
01:45:39.846 --> 01:45:42.926
Okay. Thank you for that explanation. This is a public hearing.

2120
01:45:43.006 --> 01:45:45.586
Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak on this item?

2121
01:45:46.866 --> 01:45:49.926
Not seeing any, I close the public portion and turn it over to the board.

2122
01:45:50.686 --> 01:45:51.186
Mr. Chair?

2123
01:45:51.726 --> 01:45:52.406
Yes, Mr. Rutz.

2124
01:45:53.326 --> 01:45:55.296
So I have a question.

2125
01:45:56.066 --> 01:45:56.426
Yes, sir.

2126
01:45:57.886 --> 01:46:00.626
When was the second doorway installed?

2127
01:46:01.166 --> 01:46:01.926
The second doorway?

2128
01:46:02.246 --> 01:46:02.386
Yeah.

2129
01:46:02.806 --> 01:46:05.206
There's a total of four doors on the home.

2130
01:46:07.126 --> 01:46:07.365
Okay.

2131
01:46:07.426 --> 01:46:10.646
There's two doors. There's a door on the second floor to a balcony, a safety

2132
01:46:10.726 --> 01:46:14.406
balcony that was built as a fire escape in the event of emergency on the second

2133
01:46:14.446 --> 01:46:18.406
floor. There's a side door entry that's a combined joined

2134
01:46:18.466 --> 01:46:20.226
unit, so the side door in the driveway.

2135
01:46:20.806 --> 01:46:24.466
You can enter the basement, the first floor, or the second floor through that.

2136
01:46:25.526 --> 01:46:25.846
And

2137
01:46:26.946 --> 01:46:28.076
then the front door, there was a

2138
01:46:29.066 --> 01:46:32.986
door privately leading to the second floor with no access to the front door to the

2139
01:46:33.026 --> 01:46:35.386
front. During this process, I pulled a permit.

2140
01:46:35.786 --> 01:46:39.566
I pulled about $5,000 in permits to the City of Warren to add a second

2141
01:46:39.626 --> 01:46:42.896
door to the front to make it easier to get furniture, so I don't have to go and

2142
01:46:42.946 --> 01:46:46.446
take my couch, my massage chair, my refrigerator, anything through the dining room

2143
01:46:46.486 --> 01:46:50.406
window to get it out of the home. So I'm just making it easier access.

2144
01:46:50.466 --> 01:46:52.516
Okay. So you installed a second doorway-

2145
01:46:52.826 --> 01:46:53.506
I personally just added-

2146
01:46:53.555 --> 01:46:53.676
... to the front

2147
01:46:53.676 --> 01:46:54.186
... the second floor.

2148
01:46:54.216 --> 01:46:54.216
Okay.

2149
01:46:54.226 --> 01:46:57.106
Yeah, last week. Or second door. So it makes it a total of four doors

2150
01:46:57.115 --> 01:46:58.306
now.

2151
01:46:58.366 --> 01:46:59.906
Okay. And you bought the home,

2152
01:47:00.906 --> 01:47:02.966
but your intention is not to rent it as a duplex?

2153
01:47:03.446 --> 01:47:06.646
I'm not going to rent it as a duplex. That's just what I bought the house as.

2154
01:47:07.826 --> 01:47:08.546
So you're going to flip it?

2155
01:47:08.726 --> 01:47:11.526
No. No, sir. I've lived there since 2018. I reside there.

2156
01:47:11.586 --> 01:47:14.526
I have no intentions on moving until I move to like maybe Alma or something one

2157
01:47:14.546 --> 01:47:18.246
day, maybe when I have enough money to purchase five

2158
01:47:18.306 --> 01:47:19.986
acres for $400,000.

2159
01:47:21.406 --> 01:47:21.666
All right.

2160
01:47:23.466 --> 01:47:24.466
Okay. That's it.

2161
01:47:24.486 --> 01:47:24.686
Thank you.

2162
01:47:24.766 --> 01:47:27.006
So Mr. Watchpoint, I got some questions.

2163
01:47:31.226 --> 01:47:31.586
Excuse me.

2164
01:47:32.746 --> 01:47:33.126
Sure.

2165
01:47:33.146 --> 01:47:34.386
Do we have any

2166
01:47:35.786 --> 01:47:39.486
records on this dating back as a duplex, as

2167
01:47:39.546 --> 01:47:40.446
a rental,

2168
01:47:41.246 --> 01:47:42.226
or anything like that?

2169
01:47:42.766 --> 01:47:46.446
It has never been a rental duplex. It has never been approved any

2170
01:47:46.506 --> 01:47:46.775
way

2171
01:47:49.286 --> 01:47:50.186
that we could find.

2172
01:47:51.166 --> 01:47:54.986
As far as the permits, I would have to go look into that, but

2173
01:47:56.786 --> 01:47:56.946
that

2174
01:47:57.846 --> 01:48:00.526
still wouldn't have been a permit to allow it as a duplex.

2175
01:48:00.566 --> 01:48:04.046
That would've had to go through you guys to allow it as a duplex

2176
01:48:04.905 --> 01:48:07.346
and/or be rezoned by the planning commission.

2177
01:48:08.506 --> 01:48:09.646
Okay. So

2178
01:48:11.106 --> 01:48:14.006
then the next question, all permits have been pulled for what he's doing, correct?

2179
01:48:14.706 --> 01:48:16.866
I am not sure on all that. I know

2180
01:48:17.666 --> 01:48:19.806
there was some enforcement for

2181
01:48:20.666 --> 01:48:24.266
the electrical service release that there was some

2182
01:48:24.306 --> 01:48:26.916
enforcement for. I don't know if it's been pulled or not-

2183
01:48:27.086 --> 01:48:27.336
I see that

2184
01:48:27.346 --> 01:48:27.646
... by now.

2185
01:48:27.706 --> 01:48:29.386
Yep. I see that.

2186
01:48:30.366 --> 01:48:31.086
And then-

2187
01:48:32.526 --> 01:48:33.766
I would have to do the research.

2188
01:48:34.206 --> 01:48:38.126
Yeah, I had pulled permits for two new panels. Those are all installed.

2189
01:48:38.546 --> 01:48:41.506
I pulled permits for two new riser poles, two meters, two outside service

2190
01:48:41.546 --> 01:48:45.046
disconnects. All that's been coordinated with DTE to make this

2191
01:48:45.066 --> 01:48:49.026
process happen. All roughs are

2192
01:48:49.066 --> 01:48:51.486
passed. All the new insulation's installed.

2193
01:48:51.546 --> 01:48:53.746
The drywall's in the front yard waiting to be installed.

2194
01:48:54.706 --> 01:48:54.906
Okay.

2195
01:48:55.526 --> 01:48:55.676
Every-

2196
01:48:55.906 --> 01:48:56.126
So-

2197
01:48:56.186 --> 01:48:58.605
All the rough permits are completed at this point and paid for

2198
01:48:58.866 --> 01:49:02.226
Okay. So I'm looking at the other enforcement issues with trailers

2199
01:49:02.786 --> 01:49:06.666
and vehicles and stuff on the lot. I drove by there, as I do with everything we

2200
01:49:06.706 --> 01:49:07.486
get in the packet.

2201
01:49:08.726 --> 01:49:10.896
Are we into code on that stuff, do we know?

2202
01:49:11.966 --> 01:49:15.186
I have not been by there recently. I don't know if

2203
01:49:16.226 --> 01:49:18.666
you saw any trailers or anything. There is-

2204
01:49:18.906 --> 01:49:21.786
There is a trailer parked in the yard, and that's because that's storing all the

2205
01:49:21.826 --> 01:49:22.736
contents of my home.

2206
01:49:22.986 --> 01:49:24.686
And I kind of assumed that, so okay.

2207
01:49:24.866 --> 01:49:25.426
I was actually-

2208
01:49:25.466 --> 01:49:26.816
And we do allow that

2209
01:49:26.816 --> 01:49:26.816
... notified that.

2210
01:49:26.866 --> 01:49:26.916
Yeah.

2211
01:49:27.366 --> 01:49:30.236
I have two trailers on the property, and that's because the contents of the

2212
01:49:30.286 --> 01:49:33.426
property and what was sellable is in those trailers

2213
01:49:33.546 --> 01:49:35.706
temporarily, so.

2214
01:49:36.586 --> 01:49:38.746
Okay. I'm all set if anybody else has got anything, so.

2215
01:49:39.486 --> 01:49:41.326
I have actually a quick question for Steve.

2216
01:49:43.246 --> 01:49:43.416
That was me.

2217
01:49:43.426 --> 01:49:44.126
The other Steve.

2218
01:49:44.146 --> 01:49:44.986
The other Steve.

2219
01:49:45.076 --> 01:49:45.076
Yeah.

2220
01:49:45.086 --> 01:49:46.106
The guy with less hair.

2221
01:49:47.666 --> 01:49:47.836
So Steve-

2222
01:49:47.866 --> 01:49:48.666
A little more than you.

2223
01:49:49.126 --> 01:49:50.746
I know. I'll give you that. I'll give you that.

2224
01:49:51.446 --> 01:49:55.386
So Steve, he brought up a good point about

2225
01:49:55.466 --> 01:49:58.706
other houses on that block. Is that whole block R1C,

2226
01:49:59.526 --> 01:50:00.126
zoned R1C?

2227
01:50:00.742 --> 01:50:02.682
I believe it's R1C or R1P.

2228
01:50:03.142 --> 01:50:03.342
Okay.

2229
01:50:03.682 --> 01:50:07.222
And if he gives us those addresses, we can start looking into them for

2230
01:50:07.262 --> 01:50:08.822
enforcement and go from there.

2231
01:50:09.082 --> 01:50:09.462
Got you.

2232
01:50:10.482 --> 01:50:13.382
Because he claimed... I just wanted to make sure.

2233
01:50:14.642 --> 01:50:18.122
So to speak of the record, the one is 21150 Sunset Avenue.

2234
01:50:18.542 --> 01:50:21.882
It's got two porches, two doors, two separate electric panels.

2235
01:50:21.922 --> 01:50:24.402
I've actually been in the backyard because I helped my neighbor cut down their tree

2236
01:50:24.462 --> 01:50:26.222
during the storm and haul it away for free for him.

2237
01:50:26.282 --> 01:50:30.142
Well, the thing is, you're going to have to probably just email Steve those

2238
01:50:30.162 --> 01:50:33.662
addresses on the side. We're not going to air dirty laundry right here.

2239
01:50:33.732 --> 01:50:33.732
No, I know.

2240
01:50:33.742 --> 01:50:34.701
But yeah.

2241
01:50:35.302 --> 01:50:36.882
Yeah. They're legal properties-

2242
01:50:37.082 --> 01:50:37.222
Sure

2243
01:50:37.282 --> 01:50:37.912
... they're legal tenants.

2244
01:50:38.822 --> 01:50:39.271
So I was just-

2245
01:50:39.402 --> 01:50:41.002
I went down and asked, and they couldn't tell me

2246
01:50:41.822 --> 01:50:45.482
individual addresses. They had no way to look it up, individual addresses, because

2247
01:50:45.582 --> 01:50:49.362
I actually wanted to show you guys, "Hey, in this one square mile, we have 54

2248
01:50:49.382 --> 01:50:51.582
duplexes." Or whatever the number might be.

2249
01:50:51.602 --> 01:50:52.262
Well, that's kind of-

2250
01:50:52.271 --> 01:50:54.072
They wouldn't tell me that information itemized on there.

2251
01:50:54.102 --> 01:50:56.762
That's kind of what I'm getting at, because this is kind of like one of those subs

2252
01:50:56.771 --> 01:50:58.562
that's kind of piecemealed kind of together.

2253
01:50:58.582 --> 01:51:00.072
We got multi, and then-

2254
01:51:00.782 --> 01:51:03.582
I haven't been in the field in a while.

2255
01:51:03.722 --> 01:51:05.202
I'm not sure if it is.

2256
01:51:05.962 --> 01:51:09.522
There's a couple on the south

2257
01:51:09.622 --> 01:51:13.042
end on the east side. He's more on the west side.

2258
01:51:13.082 --> 01:51:16.142
So I'm not sure if this street is...

2259
01:51:16.162 --> 01:51:19.312
But most of the ones I've been to over there are single family, I believe.

2260
01:51:19.362 --> 01:51:21.282
Okay. All right. Thank you, Steve.

2261
01:51:25.122 --> 01:51:27.242
Any other questions or discussions, or?

2262
01:51:29.662 --> 01:51:30.842
If not, any motions?

2263
01:51:38.182 --> 01:51:38.552
Mr. Chair?

2264
01:51:38.982 --> 01:51:39.812
Yes, Mr. Lindsey.

2265
01:51:40.722 --> 01:51:44.482
If nobody has any questions or other comments, I'll make a

2266
01:51:44.542 --> 01:51:48.282
motion. I'd like to grant permission to

2267
01:51:48.342 --> 01:51:52.262
allow the dwelling to be used as a two-family residence in an R1C

2268
01:51:52.322 --> 01:51:55.582
zoning district due to the fact that the property's

2269
01:51:55.622 --> 01:51:58.002
unique and it's not self-imposed.

2270
01:52:00.062 --> 01:52:00.402
Support.

2271
01:52:01.422 --> 01:52:03.632
So we have a motion by Mr. Lindsey, support by Mr.

2272
01:52:03.902 --> 01:52:06.472
Safaya, to approve the request for a reason stated.

2273
01:52:06.942 --> 01:52:07.472
Mr. Lindsey?

2274
01:52:07.842 --> 01:52:09.192
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

2275
01:52:09.922 --> 01:52:10.602
Mr. Safaya?

2276
01:52:10.842 --> 01:52:12.361
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

2277
01:52:13.362 --> 01:52:13.902
Mr. Perry?

2278
01:52:14.622 --> 01:52:16.222
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

2279
01:52:16.502 --> 01:52:17.182
Mr. Assessor?

2280
01:52:18.362 --> 01:52:20.102
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

2281
01:52:20.642 --> 01:52:21.242
Mr. Watts?

2282
01:52:21.962 --> 01:52:24.562
Reluctantly yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

2283
01:52:24.762 --> 01:52:25.262
Mr. Green?

2284
01:52:25.502 --> 01:52:25.752
Yes.

2285
01:52:27.162 --> 01:52:29.662
Mr. Jersey votes yes for the reason stated in the motion. Chairman Stavich?

2286
01:52:30.062 --> 01:52:31.922
I also vote yes for the reason stated in the motion.

2287
01:52:32.022 --> 01:52:33.642
Your request has been approved.

2288
01:52:33.682 --> 01:52:35.682
Thank you very much, guys. I appreciate your consideration tonight.

2289
01:52:42.802 --> 01:52:44.162
Takes us to item 13.

2290
01:52:47.202 --> 01:52:51.142
Item 13, applicant Fares Golan. Representative Fares

2291
01:52:51.162 --> 01:52:54.002
Golan. Common description 26247 Shanor.

2292
01:52:54.582 --> 01:52:58.342
Variances requested permission to operate a private business office

2293
01:52:58.382 --> 01:53:02.042
within the home exclusively for the

2294
01:53:02.082 --> 01:53:05.982
administrative and recordkeeping purposes of a driving school with

2295
01:53:06.022 --> 01:53:08.062
no employees or clients visiting the property.

2296
01:53:10.322 --> 01:53:10.902
Good evening.

2297
01:53:10.912 --> 01:53:11.702
Good evening.

2298
01:53:11.942 --> 01:53:15.562
My name is Fares Golan. I live at 26247

2299
01:53:15.722 --> 01:53:16.482
Shanor Road.

2300
01:53:17.502 --> 01:53:21.382
The reason I'm here today, to request approval to use a small portion

2301
01:53:21.422 --> 01:53:21.982
of my home,

2302
01:53:23.682 --> 01:53:27.482
located, as I pronounce it, 26247 Shanor

2303
01:53:27.522 --> 01:53:28.042
Road, Warren,

2304
01:53:29.462 --> 01:53:32.942
as a private office space strictly for

2305
01:53:33.022 --> 01:53:36.102
administrative and recordkeeping purposes.

2306
01:53:37.282 --> 01:53:41.062
And please note the following. There will be no customers or

2307
01:53:41.162 --> 01:53:41.902
clients will

2308
01:53:42.842 --> 01:53:43.782
visit the property.

2309
01:53:45.622 --> 01:53:48.902
No signage will be displayed on site or property.

2310
01:53:49.662 --> 01:53:53.632
There will be no impact on traffic, parking, or the residential

2311
01:53:53.722 --> 01:53:54.802
nature of the neighborhood.

2312
01:53:56.382 --> 01:53:59.522
The space will be used only by myself for

2313
01:53:59.602 --> 01:54:00.802
office-related work.

2314
01:54:02.902 --> 01:54:06.682
This request is solely to maintain proper records

2315
01:54:06.762 --> 01:54:10.742
related to my business and will not involve any

2316
01:54:10.802 --> 01:54:14.222
on-site business operation or public interactions.

2317
01:54:15.182 --> 01:54:19.062
Please let me know if any additional information or documentation is

2318
01:54:19.122 --> 01:54:22.002
required to process this request.

2319
01:54:22.062 --> 01:54:24.522
Thank you for your time and consideration.

2320
01:54:25.642 --> 01:54:27.262
Okay. Thank you for that explanation.

2321
01:54:28.422 --> 01:54:31.562
This is a public hearing. Is there anyone in the audience wishing to speak on this

2322
01:54:31.602 --> 01:54:31.832
item?

2323
01:54:34.282 --> 01:54:34.352
Yes.

2324
01:54:34.352 --> 01:54:37.742
Okay.

2325
01:54:37.942 --> 01:54:40.002
Hi, my name is Susan. I live next door to him.

2326
01:54:40.702 --> 01:54:43.822
I don't have a problem with him doing business at his rental home.

2327
01:54:44.202 --> 01:54:46.082
Can you have to state your full name and address?

2328
01:54:46.742 --> 01:54:46.772
Oh, I'm sorry.

2329
01:54:46.772 --> 01:54:46.772
For the record.

2330
01:54:46.782 --> 01:54:50.202
Susan Corey, I live at 26235 Shanor Road in Warren.

2331
01:54:51.642 --> 01:54:54.882
I don't have a problem whatever he's doing in his rental home inside of it.

2332
01:54:55.342 --> 01:54:59.202
Because we share the driveway, my dilemma is I want to make sure my kids are safe.

2333
01:54:59.282 --> 01:55:02.922
I don't want people to come over, like students, traffic.

2334
01:55:02.962 --> 01:55:04.562
But whatever he's doing is his business.

2335
01:55:04.742 --> 01:55:05.402
I want to

2336
01:55:07.242 --> 01:55:10.302
be able to get in my driveway and leave, and I don't want a lot of cars.

2337
01:55:10.362 --> 01:55:14.182
So he's saying there's not going to be people, but happen if that he does

2338
01:55:14.192 --> 01:55:17.902
not comply with whatever he's saying.

2339
01:55:17.962 --> 01:55:19.242
So that's all.

2340
01:55:20.102 --> 01:55:20.302
Okay.

2341
01:55:20.312 --> 01:55:20.312
Okay.

2342
01:55:20.342 --> 01:55:21.582
Thank you for those comments.

2343
01:55:24.502 --> 01:55:26.602
Not seeing any other audience members.

2344
01:55:26.682 --> 01:55:29.322
We're closed to public portion of the meeting and turn it over to the board.

2345
01:55:30.782 --> 01:55:31.102
Mr. Chair.

2346
01:55:31.662 --> 01:55:33.042
Mr. Watts, then Mr. Jersey.

2347
01:55:34.102 --> 01:55:34.362
So-

2348
01:55:34.962 --> 01:55:36.302
Yes, sir

2349
01:55:36.342 --> 01:55:36.342
...

2350
01:55:38.572 --> 01:55:41.272
if you're running your business out of there with the office stuff-

2351
01:55:41.602 --> 01:55:41.782
Yes

2352
01:55:41.922 --> 01:55:43.022
... where do you meet your clients at?

2353
01:55:43.822 --> 01:55:47.442
I go pick them up from their houses and drop them back to their houses.

2354
01:55:47.942 --> 01:55:48.822
Strictly training.

2355
01:55:49.762 --> 01:55:49.982
Okay.

2356
01:55:50.302 --> 01:55:54.022
I am licensed for teens and adults, but right now I'm only

2357
01:55:54.032 --> 01:55:57.262
training, so I'm not conducting any classes or anything,

2358
01:55:57.822 --> 01:56:01.702
just training. So that's why I'm applying

2359
01:56:01.762 --> 01:56:05.674
for a provider for the state of MichiganI've been doing this

2360
01:56:05.714 --> 01:56:09.634
since 2000, for over 26 years. So strictly

2361
01:56:09.734 --> 01:56:13.454
training. Pick them up from their houses, drop them back to their houses after the

2362
01:56:13.474 --> 01:56:14.254
training. That's it.

2363
01:56:15.054 --> 01:56:15.934
Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it.

2364
01:56:15.974 --> 01:56:16.354
Thank you, sir.

2365
01:56:17.534 --> 01:56:17.934
Mr. Chair?

2366
01:56:18.354 --> 01:56:19.094
Yes, Mr. Jersey.

2367
01:56:19.754 --> 01:56:20.254
Good evening, sir.

2368
01:56:20.514 --> 01:56:20.854
Good evening.

2369
01:56:21.274 --> 01:56:22.674
So just a couple questions.

2370
01:56:22.794 --> 01:56:22.914
Yes.

2371
01:56:22.974 --> 01:56:23.954
Are you the property owner?

2372
01:56:24.354 --> 01:56:24.474
No.

2373
01:56:25.034 --> 01:56:26.254
So this is a rental.

2374
01:56:26.614 --> 01:56:26.894
Yes.

2375
01:56:27.274 --> 01:56:27.954
The other thing,

2376
01:56:30.614 --> 01:56:33.394
so it's a driving school. So do you use your own...

2377
01:56:34.494 --> 01:56:35.794
I'm trying to understand where-

2378
01:56:35.874 --> 01:56:36.254
Yes

2379
01:56:36.294 --> 01:56:39.354
... because most driving schools have their own cars, or is this just-

2380
01:56:39.514 --> 01:56:39.864
Yes, I have a-

2381
01:56:39.864 --> 01:56:40.474
... you're using your own car?

2382
01:56:40.594 --> 01:56:42.233
I have a 2024 car.

2383
01:56:43.174 --> 01:56:44.634
It's going to be approved by the state.

2384
01:56:44.674 --> 01:56:47.094
Of course, they're going to pay me a visit to inspect the car.

2385
01:56:47.654 --> 01:56:48.714
I install a brake on it.

2386
01:56:50.154 --> 01:56:53.194
I'm going to have a $1 million liability on the car,

2387
01:56:54.154 --> 01:56:55.974
proper insurance, documentation.

2388
01:56:57.154 --> 01:57:01.034
Like I said already, the brake is installed with the proper company,

2389
01:57:01.594 --> 01:57:05.494
and after the approval of the city, then the state will pay me a

2390
01:57:05.574 --> 01:57:07.574
visit to inspect all that they need to see.

2391
01:57:08.194 --> 01:57:11.994
That's why they need to see a desk. I just have a small room, have a

2392
01:57:12.094 --> 01:57:15.894
desk, computer, a locker with a key on it.

2393
01:57:16.014 --> 01:57:19.414
That way, I can put all the students' documents in there.

2394
01:57:19.454 --> 01:57:20.754
It's secure, and that's it.

2395
01:57:20.954 --> 01:57:24.394
So just kind of just for my own information,

2396
01:57:24.474 --> 01:57:27.573
where do you keep the car? Is it on the premises, or you keep it off premises?

2397
01:57:27.634 --> 01:57:29.294
Yeah. My car, it's in my driveway, yes.

2398
01:57:29.674 --> 01:57:32.214
So this driving school car is in your driveway then?

2399
01:57:32.254 --> 01:57:35.014
Yes. But I'm going to have a portable sign.

2400
01:57:35.794 --> 01:57:38.834
So let's say when I go to training, I put the sign.

2401
01:57:38.894 --> 01:57:41.674
When I finish my training, put the sign, take the sign, it's magnet.

2402
01:57:41.974 --> 01:57:43.534
So take it off, put it

2403
01:57:44.634 --> 01:57:46.394
back and put it in my trunk.

2404
01:57:48.234 --> 01:57:52.154
Like I said, we'll be conducting no business with any students, not so

2405
01:57:52.194 --> 01:57:56.144
ever affect my neighbors or anybody else, or the traffic, like

2406
01:57:56.234 --> 01:57:57.274
I stated in my notes.

2407
01:57:57.694 --> 01:57:58.714
Here's the one thing,

2408
01:57:59.674 --> 01:58:01.334
the kind of slippery slope I see.

2409
01:58:01.464 --> 01:58:01.464
Yes, sir.

2410
01:58:01.494 --> 01:58:02.574
I mean, because you're here

2411
01:58:04.014 --> 01:58:04.894
just looking for

2412
01:58:07.254 --> 01:58:10.434
to use the home as exclusively for administrative and recordkeeping purposes.

2413
01:58:10.534 --> 01:58:10.714
Yes.

2414
01:58:12.534 --> 01:58:13.383
Where you have

2415
01:58:14.594 --> 01:58:18.334
actual property regarding the driving school

2416
01:58:18.374 --> 01:58:22.104
itself on the premises, whether it's a car, whether it's

2417
01:58:22.134 --> 01:58:24.474
whatever, that's kind of already...

2418
01:58:24.514 --> 01:58:27.914
My concern is forward-thinking, your business grows, okay?

2419
01:58:28.014 --> 01:58:30.554
And you do exponentially well, okay?

2420
01:58:30.584 --> 01:58:33.354
And you purchase two cars, now three cars.

2421
01:58:34.754 --> 01:58:35.754
You see what I'm saying?

2422
01:58:35.954 --> 01:58:36.094
Yes.

2423
01:58:36.354 --> 01:58:36.554
And

2424
01:58:38.594 --> 01:58:39.234
I'd also,

2425
01:58:40.094 --> 01:58:43.894
no offense to you, but I just have a hard-- Did you

2426
01:58:44.014 --> 01:58:45.034
clear this with the property owner?

2427
01:58:45.934 --> 01:58:46.214
Yes.

2428
01:58:46.414 --> 01:58:47.654
You did? He signed it already?

2429
01:58:47.694 --> 01:58:47.934
Yes.

2430
01:58:48.094 --> 01:58:48.814
He signed it okay?

2431
01:58:48.874 --> 01:58:49.074
Yes.

2432
01:58:50.134 --> 01:58:52.094
And, again, I have a hard time,

2433
01:58:53.014 --> 01:58:56.774
not that I don't believe you, but I mean, if said property

2434
01:58:56.834 --> 01:58:57.874
owner was here

2435
01:58:59.574 --> 01:59:03.354
trying to illustrate a little bit better, that would carry a lot more weight.

2436
01:59:04.514 --> 01:59:07.134
I have a hard time having petitioners,

2437
01:59:07.484 --> 01:59:11.404
people renting a property, come in fighting for that,

2438
01:59:11.974 --> 01:59:15.294
a variance that's going to go with the property forevermore.

2439
01:59:15.324 --> 01:59:17.754
We grant this, it goes with it forevermore.

2440
01:59:17.814 --> 01:59:20.454
It's not just for the duration that you're there.

2441
01:59:20.774 --> 01:59:24.594
So that creates another kind of slippery slope for us as

2442
01:59:24.694 --> 01:59:24.934
well.

2443
01:59:26.514 --> 01:59:26.814
So

2444
01:59:28.194 --> 01:59:31.854
those are just my concerns. I wish you nothing but the best and

2445
01:59:31.914 --> 01:59:34.414
success as an entrepreneur, but-

2446
01:59:35.214 --> 01:59:35.223
Okay

2447
01:59:35.223 --> 01:59:37.694
... tho- those are just my initial concerns.

2448
01:59:37.764 --> 01:59:37.764
So-

2449
01:59:37.814 --> 01:59:38.774
If you allow me to explain.

2450
01:59:39.154 --> 01:59:39.164
Mr. Chairman.

2451
01:59:39.494 --> 01:59:41.334
I don't have a question, so I apologize.

2452
01:59:41.474 --> 01:59:41.914
Mr. Green.

2453
01:59:42.174 --> 01:59:44.154
Mr. Watrous. So maybe

2454
01:59:44.994 --> 01:59:48.894
Mr. Jersey answered my question. So if we approve this, it's a rental,

2455
01:59:49.694 --> 01:59:51.414
and the rental sells,

2456
01:59:52.354 --> 01:59:56.214
the house stays as a house where you can run a business out of?

2457
01:59:56.954 --> 01:59:59.614
It would stay as a house where

2458
02:00:01.334 --> 02:00:05.074
I believe you can run a... The way it was written, it's not

2459
02:00:05.654 --> 02:00:08.554
any business. It would be specific to how it was written.

2460
02:00:08.614 --> 02:00:09.954
I didn't bring the form with me.

2461
02:00:10.894 --> 02:00:12.534
So specific to a driving school?

2462
02:00:14.154 --> 02:00:14.594
Oh, okay.

2463
02:00:14.854 --> 02:00:16.144
Just the administrative part of

2464
02:00:17.354 --> 02:00:17.364
it.

2465
02:00:17.414 --> 02:00:17.914
It would be,

2466
02:00:19.194 --> 02:00:22.834
and I did talk to the gentleman. We went through what his plans were and everything

2467
02:00:22.894 --> 02:00:23.154
else.

2468
02:00:24.954 --> 02:00:28.114
To be operate a private business office

2469
02:00:28.694 --> 02:00:32.114
within a home exclusively for administrative

2470
02:00:32.674 --> 02:00:33.394
recordkeeping

2471
02:00:34.794 --> 02:00:38.614
purposes of a driving school with no employees or

2472
02:00:38.714 --> 02:00:42.534
clients visiting the property. That is the variance that is before

2473
02:00:42.594 --> 02:00:45.864
you. So it is, we do try to restrict it when it comes before you.

2474
02:00:45.864 --> 02:00:46.934
So if it sells, someone could

2475
02:00:47.794 --> 02:00:49.704
move in and run a car business or another-

2476
02:00:50.194 --> 02:00:52.594
Could run a driving school,

2477
02:00:53.854 --> 02:00:56.594
administrative, and recordkeeping purposes only.

2478
02:01:00.294 --> 02:01:02.694
Okay, thanks. That answers my question.

2479
02:01:03.414 --> 02:01:03.424
Yeah.

2480
02:01:03.454 --> 02:01:03.774
Thank you.

2481
02:01:04.334 --> 02:01:04.934
Mr. Chairman.

2482
02:01:05.894 --> 02:01:07.034
I just have one. Oh, can I just add a comment first?

2483
02:01:07.714 --> 02:01:08.454
Yeah.

2484
02:01:08.574 --> 02:01:09.314
See, the

2485
02:01:10.214 --> 02:01:12.804
issue I always have is that slippery slope where

2486
02:01:14.674 --> 02:01:15.974
this petitioner

2487
02:01:18.294 --> 02:01:21.924
says there'd be nobody visiting and all that sort of stuff, but

2488
02:01:21.994 --> 02:01:25.894
if this stays with the property, I mean, there's only room for

2489
02:01:25.934 --> 02:01:27.454
like one car in his driveway.

2490
02:01:28.874 --> 02:01:30.394
He shares a driveway with the neighbor,

2491
02:01:31.774 --> 02:01:34.574
so nobody should be parking there ever getting in the way,

2492
02:01:35.474 --> 02:01:35.904
and

2493
02:01:36.854 --> 02:01:37.934
he's located on Shaner,

2494
02:01:38.734 --> 02:01:42.614
which is a main street with a lot of traffic, so you can't park

2495
02:01:42.674 --> 02:01:43.354
in front of the house.

2496
02:01:45.034 --> 02:01:48.634
I just worry that it's like th- this is the kind of

2497
02:01:48.674 --> 02:01:50.514
situation where I could say, "Oh, guess what?

2498
02:01:50.554 --> 02:01:52.674
Someone could have a driveway extension or something."

2499
02:01:56.074 --> 02:01:59.894
So the issue I have is about taking something

2500
02:01:59.934 --> 02:02:03.714
that is a residential neighborhood and allowing a non-residential

2501
02:02:03.854 --> 02:02:07.014
use in a residential house. So that's my

2502
02:02:07.054 --> 02:02:11.014
concernAnd, Mr. Safayas, did you have a comment?

2503
02:02:11.414 --> 02:02:15.383
I echo the same concerns. I am a little bit relieved with

2504
02:02:15.434 --> 02:02:16.714
the pretty specific

2505
02:02:18.034 --> 02:02:21.374
description. Perhaps we could put a caveat that there's just one...

2506
02:02:21.434 --> 02:02:25.214
I guess the question from the petitioner is, the driving the

2507
02:02:25.234 --> 02:02:28.214
vehicle you use for business, is that also your personal vehicle?

2508
02:02:28.314 --> 02:02:28.614
Yes.

2509
02:02:28.814 --> 02:02:29.604
Okay. So there's just-

2510
02:02:29.744 --> 02:02:29.744
Yeah

2511
02:02:29.744 --> 02:02:30.894
... one vehicle.

2512
02:02:31.154 --> 02:02:34.554
Just one vehicle. And by the way, if you'll allow me,

2513
02:02:36.194 --> 02:02:38.874
my driveway, I think, holds about three, four cars

2514
02:02:39.694 --> 02:02:41.834
if you line them up, just like my neighbors.

2515
02:02:42.614 --> 02:02:43.334
But like I said,

2516
02:02:44.634 --> 02:02:47.654
only friends visit me, and I never had any problems.

2517
02:02:47.754 --> 02:02:51.654
But like I said, in my business, there will be nobody visit me-

2518
02:02:51.934 --> 02:02:52.054
Your-

2519
02:02:52.184 --> 02:02:52.603
... for this.

2520
02:02:52.794 --> 02:02:54.734
Your household just has one vehicle?

2521
02:02:55.054 --> 02:02:55.254
Does anyone-

2522
02:02:55.314 --> 02:02:56.274
Yeah, I have only one vehicle.

2523
02:02:56.304 --> 02:02:58.694
Does anyone else live with you, other vehicles?

2524
02:02:58.834 --> 02:03:00.274
No. I live by myself.

2525
02:03:00.494 --> 02:03:01.054
Okay.

2526
02:03:01.204 --> 02:03:01.374
Yes.

2527
02:03:01.384 --> 02:03:05.214
Then perhaps we could add just that there's one vehicle

2528
02:03:05.274 --> 02:03:06.214
related to the business.

2529
02:03:06.634 --> 02:03:10.254
I think with that, then you start getting into the

2530
02:03:10.334 --> 02:03:14.074
fact of actual property towards the business.

2531
02:03:14.994 --> 02:03:18.044
I think Steve worded pretty creatively-

2532
02:03:18.054 --> 02:03:19.014
It's pretty tight already

2533
02:03:19.054 --> 02:03:21.454
... and good, yeah, to tighten that up.

2534
02:03:21.554 --> 02:03:24.074
I figure if we

2535
02:03:24.134 --> 02:03:27.994
could put one car

2536
02:03:28.594 --> 02:03:32.414
on it, but I just think it kind of defeats the purpose of what you tried to

2537
02:03:32.734 --> 02:03:33.814
accomplish, Mike.

2538
02:03:33.994 --> 02:03:37.034
Actually, Brian did it. I got to give him credit when he does something good.

2539
02:03:39.514 --> 02:03:40.094
So, I mean-

2540
02:03:41.094 --> 02:03:44.714
With that, I'm okay with it as written. It is pretty specific.

2541
02:03:44.994 --> 02:03:47.074
Just for your information,

2542
02:03:48.134 --> 02:03:50.314
if you had a business and you only

2543
02:03:51.314 --> 02:03:55.094
did work at home bookkeeping-wise, whatever, and nothing was

2544
02:03:55.114 --> 02:03:58.274
brought there, that is an allowed use under the ordinance.

2545
02:03:58.754 --> 02:04:02.694
The fact is that he's got the car there now, and

2546
02:04:02.754 --> 02:04:06.554
he also needs the state approval, which we have to sign

2547
02:04:06.614 --> 02:04:10.494
off on for that business. So if the restrictions

2548
02:04:10.554 --> 02:04:10.974
are there,

2549
02:04:12.154 --> 02:04:16.114
it makes us be able to sign off as well as puts

2550
02:04:16.174 --> 02:04:17.334
it on for enforcement.

2551
02:04:18.894 --> 02:04:22.454
It's really no different. I have an office, but I take my work home.

2552
02:04:22.514 --> 02:04:25.314
I work in a bedroom I have set up as an office.

2553
02:04:25.334 --> 02:04:28.774
There's no clients there, just administrative stuff. So that's a good point, Mr.

2554
02:04:28.934 --> 02:04:29.454
Washburn.

2555
02:04:30.954 --> 02:04:30.964
Mr. Chair.

2556
02:04:31.114 --> 02:04:33.384
If there's no other comments, I'd like to make a motion.

2557
02:04:33.384 --> 02:04:33.674
Mr. Chair.

2558
02:04:33.964 --> 02:04:33.964
Mr. Chair.

2559
02:04:33.974 --> 02:04:35.004
There is Mr. Green.

2560
02:04:35.514 --> 02:04:38.983
I think there is a difference in the sense that the ordinance is

2561
02:04:39.294 --> 02:04:43.124
pretty clear. Operating a business from a residence is not a permitted

2562
02:04:43.194 --> 02:04:46.594
use in R1C. And I think that

2563
02:04:47.474 --> 02:04:51.414
the definition is different than me or you or someone, in

2564
02:04:51.474 --> 02:04:55.134
my mind, working at home as opposed to running an actual

2565
02:04:55.194 --> 02:04:58.454
business out of there. And the fact that it's a rental and the fact that it could

2566
02:04:58.674 --> 02:04:59.094
sell

2567
02:05:00.154 --> 02:05:03.944
means someone could come and be aware of the fact that you can run a used

2568
02:05:04.014 --> 02:05:06.774
car thing out of there. Not used car, a

2569
02:05:07.694 --> 02:05:08.914
driver's school thing out of there.

2570
02:05:09.174 --> 02:05:10.274
I'm uncomfortable with

2571
02:05:11.874 --> 02:05:15.594
allowing people to run businesses out of their residence.

2572
02:05:16.774 --> 02:05:17.714
So I'll be a no vote.

2573
02:05:19.554 --> 02:05:19.854
Thank you.

2574
02:05:22.514 --> 02:05:25.034
Any other comments from the board, or...?

2575
02:05:26.164 --> 02:05:27.434
I was going to make a motion, but I think Mr.

2576
02:05:27.634 --> 02:05:29.294
Safaya, you were going to, so please do.

2577
02:05:29.954 --> 02:05:33.874
I'd like to make a motion to grant permission to operate a private

2578
02:05:33.894 --> 02:05:36.694
business office within the home exclusively for the

2579
02:05:36.714 --> 02:05:40.164
administration and record-keeping purposes of a driving

2580
02:05:40.274 --> 02:05:43.734
school with no employees or clients visiting the properties,

2581
02:05:45.054 --> 02:05:46.874
due to it not being a detriment to the area.

2582
02:05:47.154 --> 02:05:47.574
Support.

2583
02:05:49.234 --> 02:05:51.354
So we have a motion by Mr. Safaya, support by Mr.

2584
02:05:51.654 --> 02:05:54.794
Lindsey, to approve the request for the reasons stated in the motion.

2585
02:05:54.974 --> 02:05:55.174
Okay.

2586
02:05:55.854 --> 02:05:57.844
Can I ask a question on the motion?

2587
02:05:59.374 --> 02:05:59.454
Yep.

2588
02:06:00.034 --> 02:06:01.834
So where do we go with enforcement from here?

2589
02:06:06.524 --> 02:06:09.974
He adds a car or students start coming to the

2590
02:06:10.014 --> 02:06:12.714
location. How do we deal with the enforcement?

2591
02:06:13.374 --> 02:06:16.954
It would be a violation of the ordinance granted, and we would

2592
02:06:17.314 --> 02:06:19.174
do it as we do other enforcements.

2593
02:06:19.434 --> 02:06:20.013
Okay. Thank you.

2594
02:06:20.754 --> 02:06:21.694
If he adds a car,

2595
02:06:23.034 --> 02:06:25.434
I don't know if he's married or multiple-

2596
02:06:25.673 --> 02:06:25.683
No, I get it

2597
02:06:25.683 --> 02:06:29.664
... people there, but if there are two vehicles there, that would not violate

2598
02:06:29.664 --> 02:06:30.233
it. If there-

2599
02:06:30.514 --> 02:06:30.664
Understood

2600
02:06:30.664 --> 02:06:34.354
... was two vehicles and they had the signs on it and they're advertising there,

2601
02:06:35.814 --> 02:06:38.374
obviously he can't advertise there either.

2602
02:06:39.034 --> 02:06:40.584
There's certain restrictions with that as well.

2603
02:06:40.614 --> 02:06:42.314
Okay. I just want to be sure. Okay. Thank you.

2604
02:06:42.724 --> 02:06:45.144
Okay.

2605
02:06:45.934 --> 02:06:46.674
The roll call.

2606
02:06:47.574 --> 02:06:48.214
Mr. Safaya?

2607
02:06:48.694 --> 02:06:50.294
Yes, for the reasons stated in the motion.

2608
02:06:50.374 --> 02:06:50.924
Mr. Lindsey?

2609
02:06:51.154 --> 02:06:52.614
Yes, for the reasons stated in the motion.

2610
02:06:53.844 --> 02:06:54.514
Mr. Perry?

2611
02:06:55.114 --> 02:06:56.623
Yes, for the reasons stated in the motion.

2612
02:06:57.034 --> 02:06:57.684
Mr. Assessor?

2613
02:06:59.154 --> 02:07:00.734
Yes, for the reasons stated in the motion.

2614
02:07:01.054 --> 02:07:01.654
Mr. Watts?

2615
02:07:02.994 --> 02:07:04.094
No, I think we're on a

2616
02:07:05.234 --> 02:07:05.814
wrong path.

2617
02:07:07.794 --> 02:07:08.174
Mr. Green?

2618
02:07:08.514 --> 02:07:09.714
No, it can be used as zoned.

2619
02:07:12.354 --> 02:07:15.014
Mr. Jersey also votes no. I believe it can be used as zoned.

2620
02:07:15.304 --> 02:07:16.514
And Chairman Stovitch?

2621
02:07:17.934 --> 02:07:21.854
I don't like having businesses in residential neighborhoods, so I am going to

2622
02:07:21.894 --> 02:07:22.854
vote no also.

2623
02:07:23.734 --> 02:07:27.314
So unfortunately, the request did not

2624
02:07:27.374 --> 02:07:27.734
pass

2625
02:07:28.714 --> 02:07:29.874
with a four to four vote.

2626
02:07:30.374 --> 02:07:30.714
Correct.

2627
02:07:31.754 --> 02:07:32.614
And he needed six.

2628
02:07:34.354 --> 02:07:35.034
Okay. Thank you.

2629
02:07:45.594 --> 02:07:46.894
Takes us to item 15.

2630
02:07:48.314 --> 02:07:52.194
Home Depot, HD, Development of Maryland Incorporated, Representative George

2631
02:07:52.614 --> 02:07:56.214
Ostrowski. Account description 25879 Hoover.

2632
02:07:56.744 --> 02:07:59.994
Grantee's requested permission to operate seasonal outdoor sales in the following

2633
02:08:00.074 --> 02:08:03.874
area. One, area two of the approved site plan measuring 40 feet

2634
02:08:03.974 --> 02:08:05.134
by 130 feet,

2635
02:08:06.254 --> 02:08:08.394
5,200 square feet from

2636
02:08:08.834 --> 02:08:12.354
5/1/2026 to 8/31/2026.

2637
02:08:12.934 --> 02:08:15.874
Two, area three of the approved site plan

2638
02:08:15.914 --> 02:08:19.562
-... measuring 20 feet by 125 feet,

2639
02:08:20.422 --> 02:08:24.102
2,500 square feet from 5/1/26

2640
02:08:24.202 --> 02:08:27.422
to 12/31/26. Total of

2641
02:08:27.562 --> 02:08:30.562
7,700 square feet of seasonal outdoor

2642
02:08:30.682 --> 02:08:33.582
sales per the site plan, per the plan.

2643
02:08:35.462 --> 02:08:39.252
Thank you. George Ostrowski, I'm a landscape architect excuse me, with Nowak and

2644
02:08:39.262 --> 02:08:43.242
Paras Engineers, 4677 Woodward Avenue, Pontiac,

2645
02:08:43.302 --> 02:08:46.672
Michigan. With me also is Mr. Dennis Sanders,

2646
02:08:46.862 --> 02:08:48.552
the Home Depot store manager,

2647
02:08:49.722 --> 02:08:53.202
available for questions should anything come up.

2648
02:08:56.102 --> 02:08:58.942
Clearly, the application pretty much states it.

2649
02:08:59.562 --> 02:09:03.242
I know there's been an ongoing approval

2650
02:09:03.342 --> 02:09:07.142
process with Home Depot requesting outdoor sales

2651
02:09:07.282 --> 02:09:10.602
areas on site. It's a function of

2652
02:09:12.122 --> 02:09:14.382
today's large retailers.

2653
02:09:15.942 --> 02:09:18.602
This store, as old as it is, I believe the first

2654
02:09:21.562 --> 02:09:25.122
outdoor sales dates back to

2655
02:09:25.242 --> 02:09:29.222
2009, and subsequently, the store has been coming in to

2656
02:09:29.702 --> 02:09:31.882
re-up those uses seasonally every year.

2657
02:09:35.482 --> 02:09:38.962
The seasonal consumer demand for plant and landscape materials in the spring and

2658
02:09:39.062 --> 02:09:39.342
fall,

2659
02:09:41.182 --> 02:09:44.962
these demands exceed the store's capacity to

2660
02:09:45.002 --> 02:09:48.782
house these goods, both the plant materials and then the larger

2661
02:09:50.102 --> 02:09:53.282
landscape materials like mulch, soil,

2662
02:09:54.022 --> 02:09:57.642
and concrete, and the like. Very

2663
02:09:57.682 --> 02:09:59.122
specifically, the request

2664
02:10:01.402 --> 02:10:02.662
sets a time frame

2665
02:10:03.902 --> 02:10:06.242
within which the goods would be stored outside.

2666
02:10:06.802 --> 02:10:10.142
I think item two or area

2667
02:10:10.202 --> 02:10:13.342
two is an area that's sort of cordoned off in the parking lot.

2668
02:10:13.882 --> 02:10:17.792
The other area, area three, is an area up close to the existing

2669
02:10:17.882 --> 02:10:21.802
garden center that would be primarily used for outdoor plants.

2670
02:10:24.342 --> 02:10:27.602
With that, I would be happy to answer any questions.

2671
02:10:29.922 --> 02:10:30.602
Audience?

2672
02:10:32.582 --> 02:10:34.182
I'm sorry, if I could just add quickly.

2673
02:10:35.562 --> 02:10:39.442
On behalf of the planning department, we just, as a matter of fact,

2674
02:10:39.522 --> 02:10:41.962
yesterday, submitted a revised site plan.

2675
02:10:42.282 --> 02:10:45.772
I know the plan that I believe is in front of you was done

2676
02:10:46.242 --> 02:10:50.102
so long ago. The planning department requested that we submit a

2677
02:10:50.442 --> 02:10:51.462
current site plan-

2678
02:10:51.882 --> 02:10:52.152
So where is it?

2679
02:10:52.152 --> 02:10:53.932
... which identifies some-

2680
02:10:53.971 --> 02:10:54.572
Where is it?

2681
02:10:54.572 --> 02:10:58.042
... potential additional areas that the store would be looking for

2682
02:10:58.822 --> 02:11:02.482
to maybe store in the future. If the planning commission

2683
02:11:02.502 --> 02:11:06.292
approves that, there is a potential that we could be back before this

2684
02:11:06.302 --> 02:11:09.751
body for a similar use permit. But again,

2685
02:11:10.782 --> 02:11:12.292
we just submitted the plans yesterday.

2686
02:11:12.542 --> 02:11:14.381
It has to go through the whole planning process, so.

2687
02:11:14.882 --> 02:11:18.782
All right. Thank you for that explanation. This is a public hearing.

2688
02:11:18.822 --> 02:11:21.382
Is there anyone from the audience wishing to speak on this item?

2689
02:11:22.462 --> 02:11:24.962
I'm not seeing any. I close the public portion. And Mr.

2690
02:11:25.202 --> 02:11:29.082
Jersey, do you want to read the impact statement from planning?

2691
02:11:30.102 --> 02:11:30.822
Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2692
02:11:32.502 --> 02:11:35.902
Per Ram Worth, the planning director, after review of the

2693
02:11:36.522 --> 02:11:39.602
request, no issues were found to impact the abutting local or general public.

2694
02:11:39.662 --> 02:11:43.622
The variance request matches areas number two and number three of

2695
02:11:43.662 --> 02:11:47.242
the approved site plan that the petitioner received for a minor amendment

2696
02:11:47.722 --> 02:11:51.662
to the site plan for permanent outdoor sales area to Home Depot

2697
02:11:52.002 --> 02:11:55.202
on February 25th, 2019.

2698
02:11:56.622 --> 02:11:57.122
Mr. Chair.

2699
02:11:57.462 --> 02:11:57.702
Okay.

2700
02:11:59.082 --> 02:12:01.182
Turn it over to the board. And Mr. Green, you want to start?

2701
02:12:01.722 --> 02:12:02.862
Yeah. I have a couple of questions.

2702
02:12:03.002 --> 02:12:03.182
So

2703
02:12:04.642 --> 02:12:05.112
if you look at,

2704
02:12:05.982 --> 02:12:09.902
I've got the minutes from the last go-around with Home Depot, and there was

2705
02:12:09.982 --> 02:12:11.282
one, two, three, four.

2706
02:12:12.242 --> 02:12:13.982
And at the end of the day, nothing happened.

2707
02:12:14.642 --> 02:12:17.382
And my question is, what I would ask Mr. Waterpan about...

2708
02:12:18.422 --> 02:12:22.082
No, I don't need you. I'm talking about the minutes from last year.

2709
02:12:24.442 --> 02:12:28.242
We didn't have the ability to enforce because nothing

2710
02:12:28.302 --> 02:12:28.602
got

2711
02:12:29.442 --> 02:12:29.782
done.

2712
02:12:30.842 --> 02:12:34.162
So we're back up here again today, and

2713
02:12:35.662 --> 02:12:36.902
my first question was,

2714
02:12:38.282 --> 02:12:41.042
I want this to be temporary, not permanent.

2715
02:12:42.042 --> 02:12:45.662
I would like whoever makes the motion to add that as a condition.

2716
02:12:45.702 --> 02:12:48.162
That's my opinion. And secondly,

2717
02:12:49.682 --> 02:12:53.092
with all due respect, you knew you were going to be here today,

2718
02:12:53.742 --> 02:12:57.382
and you applied for a new site plan

2719
02:12:58.862 --> 02:12:59.462
yesterday.

2720
02:13:00.602 --> 02:13:02.192
So you get my-

2721
02:13:02.642 --> 02:13:03.222
I understand.

2722
02:13:03.262 --> 02:13:04.122
Okay.

2723
02:13:04.182 --> 02:13:07.082
The season currently is a huge

2724
02:13:08.622 --> 02:13:11.422
economic driver for Home Depot.

2725
02:13:11.502 --> 02:13:14.942
Actually, it probably started in the beginning of April,

2726
02:13:15.782 --> 02:13:19.072
but to not allow outdoor sales

2727
02:13:19.422 --> 02:13:22.822
now, our planning commission date isn't set until July

2728
02:13:22.862 --> 02:13:26.762
13th. So assuming, we're two or

2729
02:13:26.802 --> 02:13:28.862
three months from that, the

2730
02:13:30.142 --> 02:13:34.022
money that is lost in that window because you can't store

2731
02:13:34.902 --> 02:13:38.662
outside is the primary driver. I discussed

2732
02:13:39.622 --> 02:13:43.162
it with planning staff prior to submitting this

2733
02:13:43.202 --> 02:13:47.182
application. We just want to be transparent with the board that

2734
02:13:47.882 --> 02:13:50.502
we are submitting the site plan revision.

2735
02:13:50.542 --> 02:13:53.762
It very well could happen that the plan could get

2736
02:13:53.802 --> 02:13:57.042
approved and they don't decide to act on it until the following year.

2737
02:13:57.662 --> 02:13:59.482
But that's not my decision.

2738
02:13:59.542 --> 02:13:59.702
I know.

2739
02:13:59.742 --> 02:14:01.202
That's their corporate decision.

2740
02:14:01.212 --> 02:14:05.022
Again, for us, for me, does that put us in a situation again where we

2741
02:14:05.062 --> 02:14:06.052
have no enforcement,

2742
02:14:07.362 --> 02:14:09.122
what's the word I'm looking for, no enforcement

2743
02:14:10.182 --> 02:14:10.722
options?

2744
02:14:11.702 --> 02:14:12.182
What?

2745
02:14:12.202 --> 02:14:13.352
Do you get what I'm saying?

2746
02:14:13.442 --> 02:14:14.822
I understand you completely.

2747
02:14:14.962 --> 02:14:15.202
All right.

2748
02:14:15.262 --> 02:14:17.112
So I'm going to try to clear it up for everyone

2749
02:14:17.742 --> 02:14:21.362
What they are coming for today is what they had a site plan

2750
02:14:21.382 --> 02:14:23.922
approval for in 2019, I believe-

2751
02:14:24.102 --> 02:14:24.542
I saw that

2752
02:14:24.582 --> 02:14:28.282
... for the seasonal temporary sales in those two

2753
02:14:28.342 --> 02:14:31.802
locations. They go beyond that, enforcement can happen.

2754
02:14:32.502 --> 02:14:35.821
And I've talked to the manager who's here, and he's well aware of it.

2755
02:14:35.982 --> 02:14:39.662
He actually has done a great job and cleaned up a lot of the stuff

2756
02:14:40.202 --> 02:14:44.022
that was there when we first sent a notice to reinforce it after you

2757
02:14:44.082 --> 02:14:47.802
guys denied it last time. So he is working on

2758
02:14:47.862 --> 02:14:50.202
that. He's relatively new there.

2759
02:14:51.502 --> 02:14:55.462
He wants to work with us. That's why they're going through a new site plan,

2760
02:14:55.622 --> 02:14:59.482
because they would like to have some storage in the back, some racks back there

2761
02:14:59.502 --> 02:15:03.402
and stuff like that. Which, if they do, they'll have to come back in front of you.

2762
02:15:04.142 --> 02:15:07.772
This is only for the temporary storage in the two locations

2763
02:15:07.902 --> 02:15:09.502
that basically had been there

2764
02:15:10.642 --> 02:15:14.462
before they expanded and created a lot of that, that you had

2765
02:15:14.542 --> 02:15:15.822
seen in the last couple of years.

2766
02:15:16.382 --> 02:15:19.482
And again, I guess my concern is that we went four

2767
02:15:19.642 --> 02:15:23.042
schedulings last year. In my brain, I would've

2768
02:15:23.142 --> 02:15:26.902
applied for, I don't know the process, a site plan,

2769
02:15:27.122 --> 02:15:30.862
different site plan, way previous to this, because it would

2770
02:15:31.102 --> 02:15:33.202
appear then when this new site plan's approved,

2771
02:15:34.242 --> 02:15:37.182
are you going to come back for more outside sale area?

2772
02:15:37.602 --> 02:15:38.062
Possibly.

2773
02:15:38.142 --> 02:15:39.142
That's what

2774
02:15:40.162 --> 02:15:41.222
it seems like is going to happen

2775
02:15:42.122 --> 02:15:45.482
because we've done this. So I'm a little bit concerned about-

2776
02:15:47.822 --> 02:15:48.202
Well, when-

2777
02:15:48.642 --> 02:15:49.742
What's the right word? Intent.

2778
02:15:50.102 --> 02:15:53.842
I can tell you this. When it was denied last

2779
02:15:53.942 --> 02:15:54.162
time-

2780
02:15:54.622 --> 02:15:54.772
Uh-huh

2781
02:15:54.922 --> 02:15:58.722
... we started the enforcement, and this gentleman cleaned everything up.

2782
02:15:58.962 --> 02:16:02.782
He didn't think he could go back, and that's probably

2783
02:16:02.822 --> 02:16:06.132
why some of that was delayed. He met with me at the office shortly

2784
02:16:06.262 --> 02:16:08.982
after. I said, "Yeah, you can go back for a site plan.

2785
02:16:09.042 --> 02:16:11.302
You were denied for that, so it'll have to change

2786
02:16:12.382 --> 02:16:16.242
what your request was. But you can go back

2787
02:16:16.302 --> 02:16:20.262
through the site plan process. I know that they didn't want to do

2788
02:16:20.302 --> 02:16:24.282
the permanent stuff, so if you go for the temporary, you can go for that now too,

2789
02:16:24.922 --> 02:16:27.062
based off the last site plan that was approved."

2790
02:16:27.102 --> 02:16:27.602
Yeah. That's me.

2791
02:16:27.662 --> 02:16:27.862
That's-

2792
02:16:27.982 --> 02:16:30.332
I prefer temporary. Dennis, can I ask you a quick question?

2793
02:16:30.482 --> 02:16:31.042
Yes, please.

2794
02:16:31.122 --> 02:16:31.482
So,

2795
02:16:32.302 --> 02:16:35.763
in the back of the building last year when this all stalled out with Home

2796
02:16:35.822 --> 02:16:38.782
Depot, one of our concerns was there

2797
02:16:38.822 --> 02:16:42.242
were storage containers back there

2798
02:16:42.843 --> 02:16:43.542
behind the building.

2799
02:16:43.692 --> 02:16:43.692
Yes.

2800
02:16:43.692 --> 02:16:46.462
And that was outside storage that wasn't approved.

2801
02:16:47.382 --> 02:16:47.923
Are there still-

2802
02:16:48.142 --> 02:16:51.763
So there was one of two. So number one was they had a

2803
02:16:51.962 --> 02:16:54.882
storage container they would keep assembled grills in. We no longer have that.

2804
02:16:54.942 --> 02:16:57.142
I turned that off. We're not getting those.

2805
02:16:57.222 --> 02:17:01.142
I know at one point, too, our break room got remodeled, that back area, so for two

2806
02:17:01.202 --> 02:17:05.162
weeks, there was a storage trailer which the people doing the work

2807
02:17:05.202 --> 02:17:07.942
there were supposed to get a permit for. We did not know they didn't.

2808
02:17:08.002 --> 02:17:08.902
Was it the brown one?

2809
02:17:09.242 --> 02:17:09.523
Yep.

2810
02:17:09.603 --> 02:17:09.822
Okay.

2811
02:17:09.923 --> 02:17:10.103
Yep.

2812
02:17:10.142 --> 02:17:11.362
That answers my question. All right.

2813
02:17:11.482 --> 02:17:15.082
If I may, I've been with the company 31 years. Home Depot is a great company.

2814
02:17:15.122 --> 02:17:16.603
We have a great partnership with the community.

2815
02:17:17.042 --> 02:17:18.902
That's why I was brought to the store. I've been there a year.

2816
02:17:19.523 --> 02:17:23.362
When I first got there, I saw the condition outside, what it looked like,

2817
02:17:23.562 --> 02:17:24.103
everything,

2818
02:17:25.202 --> 02:17:27.232
working with the city, with Steve and everybody.

2819
02:17:27.862 --> 02:17:30.082
We did get it cleaned up, and that is our goal going forward.

2820
02:17:30.923 --> 02:17:32.151
What we're proposing

2821
02:17:33.183 --> 02:17:36.002
hopefully keeps it more clean and organized, but realistic.

2822
02:17:36.242 --> 02:17:39.982
I'm in the peak of my season. So our Memorial Day ad breaks tomorrow.

2823
02:17:40.642 --> 02:17:44.562
I'm in the thick of it, and I cannot maintain what I have inside.

2824
02:17:44.642 --> 02:17:48.103
Customers are getting upset like crazy because we cannot keep enough

2825
02:17:48.142 --> 02:17:51.122
trucks because the turns, it burns so quickly.

2826
02:17:51.151 --> 02:17:54.183
It's a weather-driven business. We've been getting rain and cold.

2827
02:17:54.603 --> 02:17:57.462
We got 80 degrees this Sunday. Who knows what it's going to be like?

2828
02:17:57.492 --> 02:17:59.662
The reality is, with the plants and stuff we sell,

2829
02:18:00.482 --> 02:18:04.082
I have to have some kind of outside storage. No other company doesn't.

2830
02:18:04.142 --> 02:18:07.603
You look at Lowe's, go drive to them. You look at Menards, Walmart.

2831
02:18:07.642 --> 02:18:10.362
Yeah, I mean everybody. So we're trying to do it.

2832
02:18:10.423 --> 02:18:14.242
My commitment is I will continue to work with you guys, follow whatever is put in

2833
02:18:14.302 --> 02:18:17.722
place, keep it clean, keep it organized going forward.

2834
02:18:17.763 --> 02:18:19.202
We want to have a good partnership.

2835
02:18:19.843 --> 02:18:23.343
There's been something in the past between Home Depot and this.

2836
02:18:23.582 --> 02:18:27.042
I want to fix it, and that's what I'm here for, and I've done everything I can so

2837
02:18:27.183 --> 02:18:28.732
far in one year to try to fix that-

2838
02:18:29.322 --> 02:18:29.712
I'm just so glad to know

2839
02:18:29.712 --> 02:18:30.532
... so that we're both successful.

2840
02:18:30.962 --> 02:18:31.183
Thank you.

2841
02:18:31.462 --> 02:18:31.722
Thank you.

2842
02:18:31.763 --> 02:18:32.082
Mr. Chair?

2843
02:18:32.742 --> 02:18:33.683
Yes, Mr. Lindsay.

2844
02:18:33.763 --> 02:18:35.822
I would just make a comment to the board.

2845
02:18:36.742 --> 02:18:39.912
I totally get it. I was here last year seeing

2846
02:18:39.942 --> 02:18:43.502
this specific store playing some sort of games, who

2847
02:18:43.523 --> 02:18:46.702
knows? But we never really got to see the request.

2848
02:18:47.142 --> 02:18:50.992
I'm actually very happy that you're here, sir, that we have

2849
02:18:51.023 --> 02:18:52.062
something in front of us.

2850
02:18:53.282 --> 02:18:57.002
I drive by this every day. I work down the street, a ways

2851
02:18:57.023 --> 02:18:59.462
down, but I drive past this Home Depot.

2852
02:19:00.423 --> 02:19:04.263
It looks a lot better than it did a year ago, so thank you for that.

2853
02:19:05.242 --> 02:19:09.093
I would definitely be in favor getting something on the books that said, this is

2854
02:19:09.162 --> 02:19:12.603
what the plan is. They have to stick to it. If they come back, so be it.

2855
02:19:12.822 --> 02:19:16.683
We'll hear that request. But at least this gives zoning something

2856
02:19:16.742 --> 02:19:20.462
to follow too. You guys have to have some sort of

2857
02:19:20.523 --> 02:19:23.192
outdoor space, so I'm definitely in favor of this

2858
02:19:23.222 --> 02:19:24.603
request.

2859
02:19:24.683 --> 02:19:25.382
Mr. Chair?

2860
02:19:25.423 --> 02:19:26.183
Yes, Mr. Jersey.

2861
02:19:27.142 --> 02:19:27.222
I

2862
02:19:28.183 --> 02:19:29.282
have to say the same thing that

2863
02:19:30.222 --> 02:19:31.082
Mr. Lindsay said.

2864
02:19:32.202 --> 02:19:33.562
It's really cleaned up,

2865
02:19:34.843 --> 02:19:37.822
especially on the east side of the building, which was an absolute disaster.

2866
02:19:38.482 --> 02:19:41.802
There was multiple pallets and stuff. To me, it was a big eyesore.

2867
02:19:42.702 --> 02:19:46.662
I think the sticking point last year was, I think Home Depot came to us, and it

2868
02:19:46.673 --> 02:19:50.472
did have that permanent language in there, and that was the biggest sticking

2869
02:19:50.562 --> 02:19:51.172
point with us,

2870
02:19:52.002 --> 02:19:55.852
making sure that the way it currently looked, which was a disaster,

2871
02:19:55.972 --> 02:19:59.582
didn't permanently exist. So

2872
02:20:00.402 --> 02:20:01.402
this is, I think, one of the

2873
02:20:02.462 --> 02:20:06.342
newer site plan when I got

2874
02:20:06.402 --> 02:20:06.882
on the board.

2875
02:20:08.122 --> 02:20:11.742
As long as you can adhere to what you're saying in areas two and three,

2876
02:20:12.842 --> 02:20:14.042
I think that's a good thing.

2877
02:20:14.842 --> 02:20:18.682
I know a point of contention, too, was the residents behind you.

2878
02:20:18.782 --> 02:20:22.122
So when you're doing your site plan, when you're doing your revision or whatever

2879
02:20:22.162 --> 02:20:22.702
with planning,

2880
02:20:23.722 --> 02:20:26.872
just taking into consideration the property owners to the west of you

2881
02:20:27.732 --> 02:20:31.332
I know storing on that side of the building too, depending on what you're storing,

2882
02:20:32.292 --> 02:20:34.372
became a problem in the past.

2883
02:20:35.412 --> 02:20:36.372
But yeah, I could

2884
02:20:37.892 --> 02:20:38.792
get behind this plan,

2885
02:20:39.872 --> 02:20:43.832
and as long as it does say seasonal outdoor storage, we

2886
02:20:43.892 --> 02:20:44.132
can

2887
02:20:45.612 --> 02:20:48.892
just put seasonal and not permanent into the motion

2888
02:20:49.892 --> 02:20:51.062
to satisfy some-

2889
02:20:51.872 --> 02:20:51.942
It's got dates in it.

2890
02:20:51.942 --> 02:20:52.732
It does have dates.

2891
02:20:54.532 --> 02:20:58.372
But yeah, I think this is a very good plan, and thank you for

2892
02:20:58.652 --> 02:21:01.332
cleaning up the debacle that it was.

2893
02:21:01.452 --> 02:21:01.572
So,

2894
02:21:02.752 --> 02:21:03.592
I'll yield the floor to that.

2895
02:21:05.072 --> 02:21:05.731
Mr. Chairman?

2896
02:21:06.012 --> 02:21:07.132
Yes, sir, Mr. Safaya.

2897
02:21:07.372 --> 02:21:10.372
I agree with Mr. Jersey. I think this is a very nice site plan.

2898
02:21:10.412 --> 02:21:14.392
The only thing I see missing, maybe you don't have this, I haven't been to your

2899
02:21:14.412 --> 02:21:18.272
Home Depot this season yet, but aren't there usually plants and

2900
02:21:18.332 --> 02:21:21.052
hanging baskets and lawnmowers by the entrance to the-

2901
02:21:21.392 --> 02:21:22.792
So right now we don't have any of that.

2902
02:21:22.852 --> 02:21:26.632
That is part of the site plan that we're looking at maybe in the future.

2903
02:21:26.692 --> 02:21:29.332
We've cut back. We stopped carrying fence panels.

2904
02:21:29.372 --> 02:21:32.052
We stopped carrying tractors. There's a lot of things.

2905
02:21:32.072 --> 02:21:35.852
We don't carry our bikinis. It's hurt us quite a bit in sales, I'm not going to

2906
02:21:35.892 --> 02:21:38.802
lie, customers also, they're going to other locations.

2907
02:21:38.872 --> 02:21:42.832
But to be within ordinance where we're supposed to be, we've had to cut

2908
02:21:42.892 --> 02:21:45.792
back. We don't have any lumber outside, no concrete.

2909
02:21:46.312 --> 02:21:48.152
We do have some mulch and soil out there right now.

2910
02:21:48.192 --> 02:21:48.212
I

2911
02:21:49.672 --> 02:21:53.612
saw probably two truckloads today, easily, of soil and two truckloads of

2912
02:21:53.672 --> 02:21:57.312
mulch. So it's got to rotate in, but it's all been rotating.

2913
02:21:57.342 --> 02:21:59.592
None of it's sitting out there for a number, a lot of time.

2914
02:22:00.772 --> 02:22:02.192
So we're taking that all into consideration.

2915
02:22:02.272 --> 02:22:06.072
My goal is to keep a good clean soil outside all year round, get it in by

2916
02:22:06.172 --> 02:22:09.972
Fourth of July is my goal. I know we asked for a little bit more, but

2917
02:22:10.012 --> 02:22:12.112
that's my personal goal to have it all inside here.

2918
02:22:12.192 --> 02:22:13.712
Okay. Thank you for clarifying.

2919
02:22:14.182 --> 02:22:14.182
Mr. Chair.

2920
02:22:14.192 --> 02:22:15.252
I have no other comments.

2921
02:22:15.332 --> 02:22:16.512
Okay. Yes, Mr. Watts?

2922
02:22:17.492 --> 02:22:17.712
So

2923
02:22:19.412 --> 02:22:21.892
I know that that store is a small store,

2924
02:22:23.352 --> 02:22:23.552
and

2925
02:22:24.412 --> 02:22:26.592
as much as you're trying to do there, it kind of overpowers

2926
02:22:27.512 --> 02:22:29.712
everything that you've had out in the lot.

2927
02:22:29.812 --> 02:22:33.282
I've seen all that, and I know the size of the

2928
02:22:33.292 --> 02:22:36.892
property. Is there any thought that perhaps you guys could build another

2929
02:22:36.992 --> 02:22:39.912
building in that out lot back towards...

2930
02:22:41.432 --> 02:22:44.642
That's kind of over my head. It's been brought up a couple of times-

2931
02:22:44.892 --> 02:22:44.932
Me-

2932
02:22:44.962 --> 02:22:47.072
... by some people, and we have submitted that.

2933
02:22:47.172 --> 02:22:49.221
There's been talk about a lot of things to do with it.

2934
02:22:49.252 --> 02:22:52.392
It's an odd layout, that second lot. Very odd.

2935
02:22:52.472 --> 02:22:54.672
I don't know what the thought process was a long time ago.

2936
02:22:59.332 --> 02:23:02.552
I don't see it happening, truthfully, but that's beyond me.

2937
02:23:02.652 --> 02:23:03.792
I mean, we submitted it in.

2938
02:23:03.912 --> 02:23:05.322
It doesn't have anything to do with approving it.

2939
02:23:05.322 --> 02:23:05.922
Yeah, no, no.

2940
02:23:05.952 --> 02:23:09.632
I'm just thinking out of the box because what I don't want to see

2941
02:23:11.212 --> 02:23:13.492
is Home Depot say, "We've had enough and we're moving."

2942
02:23:13.572 --> 02:23:14.072
Oh.

2943
02:23:14.272 --> 02:23:16.012
I don't want to see an empty building.

2944
02:23:16.132 --> 02:23:18.132
We're a facility of Warren and the people. We're not going anywhere.

2945
02:23:18.142 --> 02:23:21.432
And I know you guys support a lot of stuff, so I

2946
02:23:21.452 --> 02:23:25.242
haven't been by there lately, but if

2947
02:23:25.292 --> 02:23:27.932
these guys say that it's been cleaned up, I'm good with this.

2948
02:23:27.992 --> 02:23:29.692
If I could add one other thing we've done.

2949
02:23:29.732 --> 02:23:33.042
So when I got to the store, we didn't know the process, and that was the general...

2950
02:23:33.562 --> 02:23:36.362
Oh, I'm sorry. One of the things we've done, when I got to the store, we didn't

2951
02:23:36.372 --> 02:23:40.032
know the process, when to apply. There was other people working on permits.

2952
02:23:40.472 --> 02:23:44.372
We've actually went through and worked with our regional team to set up calendars,

2953
02:23:44.472 --> 02:23:48.052
times of when we need to do things. So we're keeping track of all this, so next

2954
02:23:48.092 --> 02:23:51.792
year we know when to come up, when to apply, what to do.

2955
02:23:52.052 --> 02:23:55.422
I think that's the biggest thing. When looking at the paperwork, you see all these

2956
02:23:55.452 --> 02:23:59.372
different store managers over the last 30 years. There's 30 different names.

2957
02:24:00.252 --> 02:24:02.692
We change. We do, we rotate. I'm not planning on going anywhere.

2958
02:24:03.552 --> 02:24:06.532
But if I do, the person that comes in next time will know what to do.

2959
02:24:07.192 --> 02:24:09.572
I think that's a big part. Thank you. Thank you.

2960
02:24:09.652 --> 02:24:10.052
Fair enough.

2961
02:24:11.172 --> 02:24:13.472
Any other questions or any motions?

2962
02:24:14.632 --> 02:24:15.092
Mr. Chair?

2963
02:24:15.352 --> 02:24:16.072
Yes, Mr. Watts.

2964
02:24:16.232 --> 02:24:19.852
I'd make a motion to approve the

2965
02:24:19.872 --> 02:24:23.292
variances to operate the seasonal outdoor sales

2966
02:24:24.792 --> 02:24:28.612
in the following areas. Area one, area number

2967
02:24:28.652 --> 02:24:32.112
two of the approved site plan measuring 40 by 130,

2968
02:24:32.332 --> 02:24:36.212
5,200 square foot from 5/1/2026 to

2969
02:24:36.352 --> 02:24:40.172
8/31/26. Two, area three of the approved

2970
02:24:40.192 --> 02:24:43.732
site plan measuring 20 by 125, 2,500 square feet

2971
02:24:43.911 --> 02:24:46.161
from 5/1/26 to

2972
02:24:46.471 --> 02:24:50.312
12/31/26. Total of 7,700 square

2973
02:24:50.332 --> 02:24:53.832
feet of the seasonal outdoor sales per the

2974
02:24:53.872 --> 02:24:57.412
plan. And the reason is I don't see where any of this is a problem.

2975
02:24:57.482 --> 02:24:59.752
It's not a detriment, so support.

2976
02:25:00.301 --> 02:25:00.301
Support.

2977
02:25:00.312 --> 02:25:02.472
Okay, we have a motion by Mr. Watts, support of Mr.

2978
02:25:02.512 --> 02:25:06.042
Jersey to approve the request for the reason stated. Mr.

2979
02:25:06.232 --> 02:25:06.552
Watts?

2980
02:25:07.392 --> 02:25:08.392
Yes, for the reason stated.

2981
02:25:09.072 --> 02:25:11.832
Mr. Jersey votes yes for the reason stated in the motion. Mr. Perry?

2982
02:25:12.412 --> 02:25:13.812
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

2983
02:25:13.912 --> 02:25:14.562
Mr. Assessor?

2984
02:25:15.132 --> 02:25:16.772
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

2985
02:25:16.932 --> 02:25:17.432
Mr. Green?

2986
02:25:17.952 --> 02:25:18.212
Yes.

2987
02:25:19.132 --> 02:25:19.672
Mr. Linzey?

2988
02:25:19.932 --> 02:25:21.352
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

2989
02:25:21.832 --> 02:25:22.472
Mr. Safaya?

2990
02:25:22.732 --> 02:25:24.332
Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

2991
02:25:24.372 --> 02:25:27.012
And Chairman Stovitch. Yes, for the reason stated in the motion.

2992
02:25:27.052 --> 02:25:28.312
Your request has been approved.

2993
02:25:28.452 --> 02:25:28.892
Thank you.

2994
02:25:29.372 --> 02:25:29.542
Thank you very much.

2995
02:25:29.542 --> 02:25:29.912
Thank you, gentlemen.

2996
02:25:29.972 --> 02:25:30.592
Have a good evening.

2997
02:25:31.432 --> 02:25:35.232
Takes us to item 16, which is new business, and we do have three things to

2998
02:25:35.272 --> 02:25:39.022
discuss. First one's simple. Who's going to the appreciation

2999
02:25:39.052 --> 02:25:39.792
dinner on Monday?

3000
02:25:41.292 --> 02:25:42.712
I will not be attending.

3001
02:25:43.292 --> 02:25:44.172
I'll be there.

3002
02:25:44.252 --> 02:25:46.512
Okay. I plan on being there too, so.

3003
02:25:47.632 --> 02:25:49.232
Okay. That was the easy one.

3004
02:25:50.092 --> 02:25:50.452
Second,

3005
02:25:52.012 --> 02:25:55.872
Mr. Green earlier tonight talked about us wanting to have a

3006
02:25:55.912 --> 02:25:57.172
letter sent regarding the

3007
02:25:58.052 --> 02:25:59.372
driveway expansions.

3008
02:25:59.552 --> 02:25:59.732
Mm-hmm.

3009
02:26:01.432 --> 02:26:01.892
And so,

3010
02:26:03.492 --> 02:26:04.812
Jennifer, got a question.

3011
02:26:05.232 --> 02:26:05.392
Yeah.

3012
02:26:07.772 --> 02:26:10.232
Could you assist with the wording of that letter?

3013
02:26:11.012 --> 02:26:14.812
That maybe we could then be able to review something at our next meeting on the

3014
02:26:14.972 --> 02:26:16.312
27th or so.

3015
02:26:19.872 --> 02:26:26.262
Because-

3016
02:26:26.312 --> 02:26:26.392
So-

3017
02:26:26.772 --> 02:26:27.232
I'm thinking-

3018
02:26:27.332 --> 02:26:27.492
Yeah

3019
02:26:27.502 --> 02:26:27.502
...

3020
02:26:28.492 --> 02:26:32.292
because what we want to do is state to the council, this is a

3021
02:26:32.332 --> 02:26:35.512
problem that we're seeing. It's not going to be going away

3022
02:26:36.688 --> 02:26:38.108
And to maybe get some

3023
02:26:39.448 --> 02:26:40.268
direction or-

3024
02:26:40.728 --> 02:26:41.588
Because, yeah

3025
02:26:41.598 --> 02:26:45.328
... well, what I'm thinking is if we send to

3026
02:26:45.368 --> 02:26:49.308
council explaining that we've had many driveway complaints, and Steve told me he'd

3027
02:26:49.328 --> 02:26:51.508
get a number for us from last year.

3028
02:26:54.768 --> 02:26:56.248
I do not have that ready today.

3029
02:26:56.288 --> 02:26:56.588
Oh, I know.

3030
02:26:56.628 --> 02:26:56.638
Mm.

3031
02:26:57.068 --> 02:26:57.228
So,

3032
02:26:58.588 --> 02:26:58.848
okay.

3033
02:27:00.268 --> 02:27:02.748
So with the number that says how many we've had,

3034
02:27:04.068 --> 02:27:05.888
because there's a couple ways to deal with problems like this.

3035
02:27:06.028 --> 02:27:09.658
One of them is to let what happened today keep on happening, and

3036
02:27:09.708 --> 02:27:13.388
then somebody's going to have to do something, because it's

3037
02:27:13.488 --> 02:27:16.028
already become a problem for the administration.

3038
02:27:16.148 --> 02:27:19.728
So that's one way to solve it. The other way to solve it is

3039
02:27:20.188 --> 02:27:20.968
to send a letter,

3040
02:27:21.888 --> 02:27:24.948
look at the ordinance to see if there's anything that needs to be changed.

3041
02:27:25.228 --> 02:27:25.928
I'm not sure

3042
02:27:27.288 --> 02:27:30.488
that there's a lot of wiggle room on changing it in ordinance, but that's just me.

3043
02:27:31.118 --> 02:27:33.128
And ask why there are no

3044
02:27:35.588 --> 02:27:39.008
permits for driveways and things like that, that we discussed, that we thought

3045
02:27:39.048 --> 02:27:42.018
about. And then hopefully they will then

3046
02:27:43.328 --> 02:27:47.288
send the letter over to planning. I don't

3047
02:27:47.308 --> 02:27:49.808
know if that's the procedure or whatever it is.

3048
02:27:50.268 --> 02:27:52.608
But it needs to be done before we

3049
02:27:54.768 --> 02:27:58.518
have a lot of mad people at us for whatever reason, but it's

3050
02:27:58.548 --> 02:27:59.348
become a problem.

3051
02:28:00.708 --> 02:28:04.128
If there is an amendment to the ordinance, that would have to go to planning.

3052
02:28:04.508 --> 02:28:07.898
Right. So whatever the process is, but I think we need to be proactive and send the

3053
02:28:07.968 --> 02:28:08.168
letter

3054
02:28:08.968 --> 02:28:09.708
sooner than later.

3055
02:28:10.428 --> 02:28:14.048
I guess in my opinion, I think you should go on what you would...

3056
02:28:16.268 --> 02:28:18.188
You guys can hear me.

3057
02:28:20.368 --> 02:28:20.688
Okay.

3058
02:28:22.148 --> 02:28:26.068
In my opinion, I think you should vote to send the letter with the items

3059
02:28:26.128 --> 02:28:27.948
that you want included.

3060
02:28:30.408 --> 02:28:34.268
The zoning board of appeals has seen X amount of petitions regarding the

3061
02:28:34.348 --> 02:28:35.468
specific ordinance.

3062
02:28:36.648 --> 02:28:37.348
Can you please

3063
02:28:38.168 --> 02:28:41.098
direct whomever planning to review it-

3064
02:28:42.768 --> 02:28:46.528
Put a moratorium on enforcement until-

3065
02:28:46.848 --> 02:28:47.028
Yeah

3066
02:28:48.848 --> 02:28:48.848
...

3067
02:28:50.208 --> 02:28:53.348
Can you direct planning to review it and possibly

3068
02:28:53.468 --> 02:28:57.068
require permits for the driveways,

3069
02:28:57.228 --> 02:28:59.048
too?

3070
02:28:59.108 --> 02:29:01.328
That's not the... So, Mr. Chair.

3071
02:29:01.408 --> 02:29:01.828
That's the last thing I want.

3072
02:29:02.308 --> 02:29:03.308
Yeah. So

3073
02:29:04.828 --> 02:29:06.688
I thought that's what you just, and maybe I misunderstood.

3074
02:29:06.818 --> 02:29:06.818
I-

3075
02:29:06.828 --> 02:29:08.158
No, it is. I'm just talking about when

3076
02:29:08.988 --> 02:29:10.168
Dave said a moratorium.

3077
02:29:11.968 --> 02:29:12.888
I don't know that...

3078
02:29:15.528 --> 02:29:18.917
When you say a moratorium, so we're doing enforcement right now.

3079
02:29:20.128 --> 02:29:22.808
So let's talk this out so we can figure this out.

3080
02:29:23.108 --> 02:29:24.678
So we're doing enforcement right now,

3081
02:29:25.568 --> 02:29:29.197
and some people think that everybody has different opinions up here based on what

3082
02:29:29.308 --> 02:29:31.148
they see in the ordinance, so we're doing enforcement.

3083
02:29:31.848 --> 02:29:33.868
So these people that were here tonight,

3084
02:29:35.448 --> 02:29:36.668
they going to be tearing their driveways out?

3085
02:29:38.168 --> 02:29:40.068
That's what we voted on, yes.

3086
02:29:40.128 --> 02:29:43.108
Okay. So there's two ways to get action.

3087
02:29:43.748 --> 02:29:47.608
One is to make action happen by denying everybody who comes up here, and

3088
02:29:47.668 --> 02:29:48.708
we didn't create that.

3089
02:29:49.928 --> 02:29:52.248
I heard the comment that we, we didn't create this.

3090
02:29:52.888 --> 02:29:54.368
People paved their entire front yards.

3091
02:29:54.408 --> 02:29:57.608
That created it, and then neighbors turned to neighbors and created the issue.

3092
02:29:58.548 --> 02:29:58.848
So

3093
02:30:02.008 --> 02:30:05.318
I'm just not sure the moratorium thing is-

3094
02:30:06.388 --> 02:30:09.748
I think the moratorium would be on the enforcement

3095
02:30:10.108 --> 02:30:13.908
because I would hate to have somebody while this is going on being hit by

3096
02:30:13.968 --> 02:30:15.638
a thousand dollar fine.

3097
02:30:15.648 --> 02:30:17.268
We've already done it, though.

3098
02:30:18.408 --> 02:30:19.138
Well, that's just-

3099
02:30:19.138 --> 02:30:21.668
You don't see... This is what we're in. We've already done it.

3100
02:30:22.188 --> 02:30:25.108
We've got people who have spent thousands of dollars tearing driveways out already.

3101
02:30:25.688 --> 02:30:26.398
So we tell them,

3102
02:30:27.578 --> 02:30:29.968
"This is what we..." That's why we have to expedite kind of quick.

3103
02:30:30.348 --> 02:30:31.498
I think the letter should say,

3104
02:30:32.368 --> 02:30:34.748
and I'll make a motion that we send the letter to council,

3105
02:30:35.888 --> 02:30:37.868
and then we can have more discussion after my motion.

3106
02:30:37.908 --> 02:30:41.508
But send the letter to council explaining that we've had many driveway complaints

3107
02:30:41.528 --> 02:30:44.768
since Steve will give you a number in the last year.

3108
02:30:44.788 --> 02:30:48.148
Please look at the ordinance to see if there's anything that needs to be changed

3109
02:30:48.828 --> 02:30:51.328
or are there any ways to help solve this problem.

3110
02:30:51.368 --> 02:30:54.498
And possibly, implement permits for

3111
02:30:55.507 --> 02:30:59.488
the driveway portion to eliminate confusion because that seems

3112
02:31:00.108 --> 02:31:02.888
to be a big part of it. I think people are confused.

3113
02:31:02.928 --> 02:31:04.888
They think when they get the one thing...

3114
02:31:05.538 --> 02:31:07.908
And anybody else add to the letter, go ahead.

3115
02:31:07.968 --> 02:31:09.178
I mean, if you think-

3116
02:31:09.358 --> 02:31:09.358
Yeah, I-

3117
02:31:09.408 --> 02:31:10.348
I'll try to get something up here-

3118
02:31:10.428 --> 02:31:12.758
If you think a moratorium's a good idea, add it to the letter.

3119
02:31:12.928 --> 02:31:16.168
I don't like the idea of requiring a permit for the driveway, though.

3120
02:31:16.208 --> 02:31:19.428
I think that just makes it more complicated and burdensome and costly for the

3121
02:31:19.448 --> 02:31:19.868
homeowner.

3122
02:31:20.168 --> 02:31:21.648
Well, it's not very clear.

3123
02:31:22.428 --> 02:31:22.718
I think-

3124
02:31:22.848 --> 02:31:25.028
Actually, it's not clear for a homeowner because when you think-

3125
02:31:25.038 --> 02:31:25.158
It's not

3126
02:31:25.268 --> 02:31:29.228
... what they're asking for a variance against is the yard use thing, and if

3127
02:31:29.288 --> 02:31:31.448
you read this, nowhere does it talk about a driveway in it.

3128
02:31:31.968 --> 02:31:35.928
Oh, I'm sorry. You mean the

3129
02:31:35.968 --> 02:31:37.748
original ordinance?

3130
02:31:37.968 --> 02:31:38.188
Yes.

3131
02:31:38.548 --> 02:31:41.568
It's as confusing as it talks about ornamental, and it's really kind of-

3132
02:31:41.748 --> 02:31:41.818
I know

3133
02:31:41.828 --> 02:31:42.908
... believe me-

3134
02:31:42.978 --> 02:31:43.438
... kind of goofy

3135
02:31:43.488 --> 02:31:47.388
... I have mixed emotions about the permits because I just did my roof, and I got

3136
02:31:47.428 --> 02:31:50.248
a permit for the roof, and the only inspection they did

3137
02:31:51.088 --> 02:31:52.397
is he came out, and he walked around.

3138
02:31:53.088 --> 02:31:54.238
I mean, he did give it a good look,

3139
02:31:55.208 --> 02:31:56.728
and that was the inspection.

3140
02:31:57.888 --> 02:32:01.148
And so be it. I mean, I've played by the rules. I did a shed years ago.

3141
02:32:01.188 --> 02:32:02.668
I played by the rules.

3142
02:32:03.568 --> 02:32:07.108
Did siding, windows, all that stuff, I always played by the rules on that.

3143
02:32:08.048 --> 02:32:10.228
But here's the problem,

3144
02:32:11.068 --> 02:32:14.848
and Ms. Bertha was here that we had who we turned down the

3145
02:32:14.888 --> 02:32:15.428
last time.

3146
02:32:16.648 --> 02:32:19.468
This is where the people are playing the games with everybody's mind.

3147
02:32:20.088 --> 02:32:23.897
They go to the city, and they say, "I'm replacing my driveway.

3148
02:32:23.988 --> 02:32:24.948
Do I need a permit?"

3149
02:32:27.028 --> 02:32:27.428
And they say, "No."

3150
02:32:27.468 --> 02:32:28.908
You don't need a permit between the

3151
02:32:30.828 --> 02:32:32.708
sidewalk and the house,

3152
02:32:33.748 --> 02:32:36.128
but you do need it for the approach or the sidewalk.

3153
02:32:37.168 --> 02:32:37.568
So

3154
02:32:38.628 --> 02:32:40.068
they go and they do it,

3155
02:32:40.948 --> 02:32:42.748
and they widen their driveway

3156
02:32:44.140 --> 02:32:47.320
And that's not replacing their driveway when you widen it.

3157
02:32:47.880 --> 02:32:50.540
That's not replacing it. You're adding to it.

3158
02:32:51.060 --> 02:32:53.060
And I think this is where the permit plays in.

3159
02:32:53.420 --> 02:32:57.180
And in particular, the guy that turned everybody in, he had a

3160
02:32:57.340 --> 02:32:57.920
stop order,

3161
02:32:59.580 --> 02:33:03.420
specific stop order, he was told, and I think she had a stop order too, if I'm

3162
02:33:03.480 --> 02:33:04.900
not mistaken.

3163
02:33:04.930 --> 02:33:05.520
I'm not sure.

3164
02:33:05.600 --> 02:33:05.820
You know-

3165
02:33:05.920 --> 02:33:06.140
He did

3166
02:33:06.200 --> 02:33:06.510
... and

3167
02:33:09.200 --> 02:33:11.160
I don't like the game these people are playing.

3168
02:33:11.700 --> 02:33:14.300
And here's what else I don't like, is everybody's going to move into the

3169
02:33:14.340 --> 02:33:16.060
neighborhood and they're like, "Oh, Mr.

3170
02:33:16.320 --> 02:33:19.800
Safaya, he's got a nice little extension on his driveway. I think I'll do that.

3171
02:33:20.340 --> 02:33:22.120
But I'm going to add another foot."

3172
02:33:23.760 --> 02:33:27.700
And in my particular situation, I might add 50 feet for

3173
02:33:27.740 --> 02:33:28.340
my fifth wheel.

3174
02:33:30.520 --> 02:33:30.780
And

3175
02:33:31.740 --> 02:33:35.560
it's just people are just going to continue to do this if

3176
02:33:35.620 --> 02:33:38.840
there's no permit and there's no enforcement.

3177
02:33:39.200 --> 02:33:42.700
And it's obvious we have no enforcement in this city at

3178
02:33:42.780 --> 02:33:44.220
all.

3179
02:33:45.560 --> 02:33:48.839
I mean, all these driveways should've been caught if we had the...

3180
02:33:49.670 --> 02:33:52.300
All due respect, Steve, if we had enough inspectors.

3181
02:33:53.100 --> 02:33:56.560
But at the same time, the letter we're

3182
02:33:56.600 --> 02:34:00.080
penning to council is, "Hey, find a solution for this," or one

3183
02:34:00.400 --> 02:34:01.300
size fits all

3184
02:34:02.920 --> 02:34:03.280
rule.

3185
02:34:03.360 --> 02:34:04.260
I don't think I said that.

3186
02:34:04.640 --> 02:34:08.240
Well, that's... I mean, council has to vote on

3187
02:34:08.920 --> 02:34:11.310
a rigid rule or an ordinance update.

3188
02:34:11.320 --> 02:34:12.639
Well, what do you think we should do, Dave?

3189
02:34:13.160 --> 02:34:15.160
I think that this board should evaluate-

3190
02:34:15.180 --> 02:34:15.190
Okay

3191
02:34:15.190 --> 02:34:15.900
... each one-

3192
02:34:16.160 --> 02:34:16.740
And approve?

3193
02:34:16.910 --> 02:34:20.680
... and determine if it's tastefully done, if it's oversized, if part of it

3194
02:34:20.760 --> 02:34:21.400
has to come out.

3195
02:34:21.410 --> 02:34:23.480
But that opens up the problem. So the new ordinance is tasteful?

3196
02:34:24.580 --> 02:34:26.780
No, I'm saying that we have an ordinance now.

3197
02:34:27.520 --> 02:34:31.280
Anytime someone goes over and above the ordinance, the purpose

3198
02:34:31.660 --> 02:34:35.120
of this board is that they come to us, and we decide if it's justified or not.

3199
02:34:35.900 --> 02:34:36.000
So-

3200
02:34:36.720 --> 02:34:40.440
But see, the issue I have is like, the ones that are so old,

3201
02:34:40.660 --> 02:34:43.080
like put in 11 years ago and stuff,

3202
02:34:44.880 --> 02:34:48.780
part of me would like to be able to say certain ones, like past a

3203
02:34:48.820 --> 02:34:52.520
certain time had been, I use the term grandfathered in,

3204
02:34:52.600 --> 02:34:56.560
because it's been in there. I know one in my neighborhood that was out

3205
02:34:56.580 --> 02:34:57.960
there 40 years ago.

3206
02:34:58.940 --> 02:34:59.970
I have it in my neighborhood too.

3207
02:35:00.120 --> 02:35:04.060
And I'm like, "It's been like that for 40 years." If you go and tell that

3208
02:35:04.080 --> 02:35:06.690
person that they have to tear it out now you know.

3209
02:35:06.750 --> 02:35:09.080
So let me give you an example of something that's going on.

3210
02:35:09.600 --> 02:35:11.550
You guys probably heard about this because I turned it in.

3211
02:35:11.550 --> 02:35:12.120
I don't know yet.

3212
02:35:13.400 --> 02:35:16.380
But on Hayes, between Common and 14 Mile,

3213
02:35:18.040 --> 02:35:20.300
as long as I've ever lived there, some people have graveled

3214
02:35:21.120 --> 02:35:24.460
or cemented between the curb and the sidewalk and parked their car there.

3215
02:35:24.680 --> 02:35:28.620
And I get it. I hear those accidents on my street, and that's not a pretty

3216
02:35:28.700 --> 02:35:29.000
sound.

3217
02:35:29.840 --> 02:35:33.600
I get it. Nobody ever complains. Now, with the population

3218
02:35:33.640 --> 02:35:37.580
is changing, people are moving in, and now we got people parking their

3219
02:35:37.660 --> 02:35:40.600
Jeeps on their front lawns, I mean, up by the porch.

3220
02:35:40.960 --> 02:35:44.940
There are ruts in the front lawns. It's a mess on Hayes over there.

3221
02:35:47.080 --> 02:35:50.150
Nobody's added any concrete. They no longer

3222
02:35:51.440 --> 02:35:54.320
keep the gravel clean. It's just grass growing up through it, and they're parking

3223
02:35:54.380 --> 02:35:58.289
in it, more ruts. This is the problem you have when you let people do this

3224
02:35:58.320 --> 02:36:02.240
kind of stuff. It's never been a problem in all

3225
02:36:02.260 --> 02:36:05.700
the years that I've lived here, and in the last five or six years,

3226
02:36:06.920 --> 02:36:09.760
it started changing, and it's a mess.

3227
02:36:09.900 --> 02:36:13.390
The city is a mess. I go out and I look, me and Mr.

3228
02:36:13.660 --> 02:36:16.229
Green and Mike, we've been out many-

3229
02:36:16.240 --> 02:36:16.310
We've been on this

3230
02:36:16.310 --> 02:36:19.220
... a couple times together. And I've been doing this when I was on council.

3231
02:36:19.320 --> 02:36:20.620
I go look at all of this stuff.

3232
02:36:20.800 --> 02:36:22.180
I can't stop saying that.

3233
02:36:22.220 --> 02:36:25.810
And I see all of the stuff going on, and it's like if...

3234
02:36:26.120 --> 02:36:27.520
And this is what causes the problem.

3235
02:36:27.940 --> 02:36:28.900
You give a variance

3236
02:36:29.720 --> 02:36:33.700
because, oh, it was okay. But then the guy down the street, he sees it and he does

3237
02:36:33.760 --> 02:36:37.289
it. Well, his is not so tasteful. I mean, I had this,

3238
02:36:37.580 --> 02:36:40.180
not you guys, it was when Karen Purdy was on it.

3239
02:36:40.840 --> 02:36:44.380
But a guy put up a fence. I thought I was living in a pig

3240
02:36:44.480 --> 02:36:48.450
farm. It looked like a fence on a pig farm, and I couldn't

3241
02:36:48.480 --> 02:36:52.280
do anything about it. There was no enforcement because the

3242
02:36:52.340 --> 02:36:56.140
ZBA passed it. And guess what? It made the neighborhood look

3243
02:36:56.400 --> 02:36:57.940
horrible. Everybody was complaining.

3244
02:36:58.760 --> 02:37:02.530
I think that one guy made a good point, that one person that

3245
02:37:02.979 --> 02:37:06.060
came up and said that it's not 1955.

3246
02:37:06.100 --> 02:37:09.320
I never really thought about that, that people have more cars now.

3247
02:37:09.620 --> 02:37:10.880
Well, they're wider too. Think of-

3248
02:37:11.020 --> 02:37:12.080
Well, yeah. I never thought of that.

3249
02:37:12.100 --> 02:37:12.220
They're bigger.

3250
02:37:12.260 --> 02:37:12.700
I thought that-

3251
02:37:12.900 --> 02:37:12.950
SUV's are wider

3252
02:37:12.960 --> 02:37:14.200
... I thought that was a good point.

3253
02:37:14.390 --> 02:37:14.390
They're wider.

3254
02:37:14.390 --> 02:37:17.260
All the more reason for the ordinance maybe to get re-looked at, but...

3255
02:37:17.920 --> 02:37:21.840
When I started in the zoning division, we

3256
02:37:21.920 --> 02:37:25.680
only allowed it the same as engineering, to the edge of the-

3257
02:37:25.720 --> 02:37:25.980
Door

3258
02:37:26.200 --> 02:37:26.940
... garage door.

3259
02:37:27.760 --> 02:37:31.620
We've expanded that as a policy to go to the edge of the

3260
02:37:31.640 --> 02:37:35.620
garage. So we gave that extra room because of these cars being larger.

3261
02:37:37.080 --> 02:37:38.780
Couple other things I want to clarify.

3262
02:37:39.620 --> 02:37:43.060
Grandfathering is not a clause used in

3263
02:37:43.120 --> 02:37:47.080
zoning. It is non-conforming. No one would ever tell

3264
02:37:47.120 --> 02:37:48.980
them they should be grandfathered in.

3265
02:37:49.480 --> 02:37:51.580
I've heard that from many other ones out there.

3266
02:37:52.200 --> 02:37:55.380
Grandfathering is not a term used by zoning inspectors.

3267
02:37:56.280 --> 02:37:57.360
I can't get that law.

3268
02:37:57.700 --> 02:38:00.100
There was one other point. Oh, permits.

3269
02:38:01.240 --> 02:38:04.460
We have a fence permit that's $25 for 100 feet.

3270
02:38:04.840 --> 02:38:08.310
It's our cheapest permit. It is basically a

3271
02:38:09.140 --> 02:38:10.490
internal review

3272
02:38:11.380 --> 02:38:15.170
to allow that. We do not do outside inspections, and I think

3273
02:38:15.260 --> 02:38:17.240
this would fall under something like that.

3274
02:38:17.500 --> 02:38:21.160
If we had a driveway permit, it would be an internal

3275
02:38:21.200 --> 02:38:24.980
review and go that way. And the cost is not up to

3276
02:38:25.040 --> 02:38:27.500
us, it'd be up to the council. But it-

3277
02:38:28.000 --> 02:38:29.119
I totally missed what you said.

3278
02:38:30.400 --> 02:38:30.680
Uh.

3279
02:38:30.720 --> 02:38:30.850
What?

3280
02:38:31.080 --> 02:38:32.780
We have a fence permit right now.

3281
02:38:33.720 --> 02:38:37.340
It's our cheapest permit. It is an internal review permit.

3282
02:38:37.480 --> 02:38:39.180
So we review it when it comes in.

3283
02:38:40.280 --> 02:38:42.420
It's $25 for the first 100 feet.

3284
02:38:43.360 --> 02:38:46.640
If we approve it, they have their permit, they put it up, nothing

3285
02:38:46.680 --> 02:38:50.518
elseIf there's a complaint on it, we go and do an inspection like we do on

3286
02:38:50.568 --> 02:38:54.248
any other complaints, but we do not go do a physical inspection

3287
02:38:54.348 --> 02:38:54.868
on that.

3288
02:38:55.828 --> 02:38:58.988
So, if we did something like that with the driveway permit,

3289
02:39:00.078 --> 02:39:03.928
that it's an internal review, it should be a minor cost

3290
02:39:03.948 --> 02:39:05.528
because I know I heard cost up there,

3291
02:39:06.768 --> 02:39:10.028
just a nominal fee, that it gets internally

3292
02:39:10.048 --> 02:39:13.918
reviewed to meet whatever ordinance if

3293
02:39:13.948 --> 02:39:15.808
they change the ordinance going forward.

3294
02:39:16.308 --> 02:39:18.618
That way, it would require the permit and everything else.

3295
02:39:19.308 --> 02:39:21.467
Administratively, we do work on it.

3296
02:39:21.668 --> 02:39:25.068
So, $25, whatever,

3297
02:39:25.078 --> 02:39:29.048
$50 fee, whatever gets charged would be charged, but that'd

3298
02:39:29.088 --> 02:39:32.348
be for council to do it. But that would be a way

3299
02:39:32.388 --> 02:39:35.908
where there would be no scheduled inspection,

3300
02:39:37.128 --> 02:39:40.508
but if they don't comply with what is drawn,

3301
02:39:41.088 --> 02:39:43.568
it's in violation just like anything else that's out there.

3302
02:39:44.688 --> 02:39:46.908
So, you bring up a good point, Steve.

3303
02:39:47.768 --> 02:39:51.738
So, when I was there and seeing you when I got my permit, lady in front of me was

3304
02:39:51.768 --> 02:39:53.008
getting a permit for a fence.

3305
02:39:54.008 --> 02:39:56.978
And she was all about, "There's no way I'm putting the good side

3306
02:39:58.428 --> 02:39:58.948
outside."

3307
02:39:59.768 --> 02:40:00.948
So, if she gets a permit,

3308
02:40:02.188 --> 02:40:04.308
there's no guarantee that she'll do it right.

3309
02:40:04.928 --> 02:40:08.088
There's no enforcement, unless there's a complaint

3310
02:40:09.128 --> 02:40:09.228
or-

3311
02:40:09.348 --> 02:40:12.208
Or someone drives by and sees it inspector-wise

3312
02:40:12.228 --> 02:40:15.928
... and now, and this is not your guys' fault because somebody made the rule of no

3313
02:40:15.988 --> 02:40:19.938
inspections. So now here we are. That's why we have all these fences that look

3314
02:40:20.008 --> 02:40:20.508
like they are.

3315
02:40:21.528 --> 02:40:25.028
Well, that ordinance went into place in 2013.

3316
02:40:25.108 --> 02:40:27.658
Before that, it was legal to have it the other direction.

3317
02:40:27.908 --> 02:40:28.088
Yeah.

3318
02:40:28.128 --> 02:40:28.308
So.

3319
02:40:28.508 --> 02:40:28.788
Okay.

3320
02:40:28.848 --> 02:40:29.988
So I just want to do what the ward wants.

3321
02:40:30.028 --> 02:40:32.108
If you guys don't want to send the letter, Nicole, you guys-

3322
02:40:32.148 --> 02:40:33.447
I'm trying to write something up now. I'm going to give it to you guys.

3323
02:40:33.568 --> 02:40:37.128
Well, but we can use the other technique, and

3324
02:40:37.188 --> 02:40:41.128
I'm fine with using the technique of letting it fester to a boil, and then

3325
02:40:41.188 --> 02:40:43.328
something's going to have to happen. It's almost there.

3326
02:40:43.948 --> 02:40:44.428
You can...

3327
02:40:44.648 --> 02:40:47.968
I mean, one guy over there was not a happy camper.

3328
02:40:49.328 --> 02:40:50.648
My suggestion is if

3329
02:40:51.648 --> 02:40:54.648
we don't want to do anything in haste, bring back the ideas for the next meeting.

3330
02:40:54.728 --> 02:40:54.988
I mean...

3331
02:40:57.097 --> 02:41:00.508
The only problem is there'll be four people here at the next meeting that we're

3332
02:41:00.528 --> 02:41:00.688
going to

3333
02:41:01.828 --> 02:41:03.348
. You know what I mean? And I felt-

3334
02:41:04.388 --> 02:41:06.918
I think the next meeting's a shorter meeting, so.

3335
02:41:06.968 --> 02:41:07.308
I-

3336
02:41:07.568 --> 02:41:08.128
I hope so

3337
02:41:08.168 --> 02:41:09.088
... my apologies.

3338
02:41:09.128 --> 02:41:09.668
No problem at the next meeting.

3339
02:41:10.088 --> 02:41:12.188
Sorry. All you're doing,

3340
02:41:13.408 --> 02:41:16.288
no one's acting in haste. This is just getting the ball rolling.

3341
02:41:17.028 --> 02:41:17.648
Send the letter,

3342
02:41:18.468 --> 02:41:21.768
start looking into this because it's a problem, and the details

3343
02:41:23.288 --> 02:41:24.808
can be worked out later.

3344
02:41:26.748 --> 02:41:29.708
It's for council to work out. It's for planning to work out.

3345
02:41:30.338 --> 02:41:32.608
They're the ones that have to vote on it.

3346
02:41:33.708 --> 02:41:36.648
The attorneys to write if the ordinance changes.

3347
02:41:36.668 --> 02:41:37.428
Whatever you say.

3348
02:41:40.568 --> 02:41:44.528
So no, if you guys want to get the ball rolling, I think vote, send the

3349
02:41:44.568 --> 02:41:46.888
letter, and the details will be worked out later.

3350
02:41:47.028 --> 02:41:49.078
I think the letter should be very simple, that's all.

3351
02:41:49.088 --> 02:41:50.288
I got something for us. What do you-

3352
02:41:50.408 --> 02:41:50.698
I think it

3353
02:41:51.808 --> 02:41:52.238
should say-

3354
02:41:52.238 --> 02:41:52.268
Okay

3355
02:41:52.288 --> 02:41:55.688
... that we've had a problem. Look at the existing ordinance.

3356
02:41:55.868 --> 02:41:57.448
I've gotten something written up. You want to hear it?

3357
02:41:58.108 --> 02:41:58.448
I guess.

3358
02:41:58.688 --> 02:41:59.268
Yeah. No.

3359
02:41:59.928 --> 02:42:01.248
Then that means it's a no.

3360
02:42:01.548 --> 02:42:01.578
I guess it's a no.

3361
02:42:01.578 --> 02:42:03.208
I've lost my motivation because-

3362
02:42:03.488 --> 02:42:06.068
Okay, guys. This is what I came up with

3363
02:42:06.888 --> 02:42:07.728
to send to council.

3364
02:42:09.248 --> 02:42:13.188
Going to send them a letter, Ms. Pierce, stipulating review ordinance section

3365
02:42:13.408 --> 02:42:17.348
4.06 regarding yard use to include review of the

3366
02:42:17.408 --> 02:42:21.158
issue of driveways being poured without a permit and requiring a permit to pour a

3367
02:42:21.168 --> 02:42:24.958
driveway and making clear the restrictions about pouring into the front or

3368
02:42:25.028 --> 02:42:26.248
side setbacks.

3369
02:42:26.348 --> 02:42:26.728
Perfect.

3370
02:42:26.788 --> 02:42:27.108
Period.

3371
02:42:27.288 --> 02:42:27.788
Sounds good.

3372
02:42:28.588 --> 02:42:29.008
I like that.

3373
02:42:29.308 --> 02:42:33.028
I don't think it says what we

3374
02:42:33.068 --> 02:42:33.308
want.

3375
02:42:34.128 --> 02:42:34.448
We want them-

3376
02:42:34.468 --> 02:42:35.588
What do you want to add to it?

3377
02:42:35.708 --> 02:42:39.438
Well, I want them to know that in the last year, we've

3378
02:42:39.508 --> 02:42:43.428
had 25 driveways come to us, and it's something

3379
02:42:43.448 --> 02:42:46.568
that needs to be looked at, and that's pretty much it.

3380
02:42:46.988 --> 02:42:47.288
I mean-

3381
02:42:48.508 --> 02:42:52.428
We've been kind of all over the map as far as granting them and not

3382
02:42:52.488 --> 02:42:54.048
granting them, even before you guys were on the

3383
02:42:55.008 --> 02:42:55.348
board.

3384
02:42:55.538 --> 02:42:57.348
I wasn't aware of that, so.

3385
02:42:58.088 --> 02:42:59.228
I can get that.

3386
02:42:59.268 --> 02:43:02.628
Yeah. The letter should state, "Hey, let's look at this,"

3387
02:43:03.068 --> 02:43:06.847
and just state, not a specific, "Oh, we

3388
02:43:06.968 --> 02:43:10.728
had 50 over the last year." We've had many over the last year, and we've still got

3389
02:43:10.768 --> 02:43:12.888
many to come. Please look at this.

3390
02:43:14.608 --> 02:43:15.728
And maybe ask,

3391
02:43:16.648 --> 02:43:19.608
"While you're looking at this, can we put a moratorium on

3392
02:43:22.068 --> 02:43:24.608
these inspections or..."

3393
02:43:25.868 --> 02:43:29.828
I'm not for a moratorium on anything.

3394
02:43:29.928 --> 02:43:30.088
You know.

3395
02:43:30.098 --> 02:43:30.378
I don't think it's the right move. I don't think it's the right move.

3396
02:43:30.378 --> 02:43:34.288
If we do asking for a moratorium, maybe put six

3397
02:43:34.328 --> 02:43:35.048
months until

3398
02:43:36.148 --> 02:43:37.208
something comes about.

3399
02:43:38.748 --> 02:43:40.588
That could be for council to decide.

3400
02:43:41.588 --> 02:43:41.927
Yeah.

3401
02:43:43.048 --> 02:43:43.378
Mr. Chair.

3402
02:43:43.428 --> 02:43:45.728
That's something the council could decide. Yes, Mr. Rutz.

3403
02:43:46.668 --> 02:43:46.888
So,

3404
02:43:47.868 --> 02:43:51.628
where are we on enforcement? Because I know a lot of things have been turned down

3405
02:43:51.668 --> 02:43:53.628
in the last year, and I'm going to start keeping a record

3406
02:43:54.968 --> 02:43:56.408
because I don't see anything changing.

3407
02:43:58.088 --> 02:44:00.408
Where are we? What are we doing? What's happening?

3408
02:44:01.748 --> 02:44:04.968
As far as enforcement, we got to, again,

3409
02:44:05.668 --> 02:44:09.168
go through the process. They do have an appeal process, everything else.

3410
02:44:09.588 --> 02:44:10.288
Who's it appealed to?

3411
02:44:11.208 --> 02:44:11.808
Circuit court.

3412
02:44:12.408 --> 02:44:12.648
Okay.

3413
02:44:14.148 --> 02:44:15.478
So, if it starts there,

3414
02:44:16.288 --> 02:44:19.428
it could stay the process, and I believe we had one.

3415
02:44:21.168 --> 02:44:24.308
I'll ask our city attorney. I believe we had one

3416
02:44:24.488 --> 02:44:27.998
that did go through the appeal process with

3417
02:44:28.608 --> 02:44:31.208
circuit court and was denied at that point.

3418
02:44:31.268 --> 02:44:32.367
That is correct.

3419
02:44:32.428 --> 02:44:35.528
And then we started enforcement by

3420
02:44:36.948 --> 02:44:40.308
giving them a 10-day notice again because that had passed,

3421
02:44:41.588 --> 02:44:45.348
to give them time to reach out to us and give us a time

3422
02:44:45.428 --> 02:44:49.184
period. So, if they reach out to us and sayYou know,

3423
02:44:50.004 --> 02:44:53.744
we're going to change it, we're going to do this, but we need a

3424
02:44:53.784 --> 02:44:54.544
month to do it.

3425
02:44:55.424 --> 02:44:58.954
We do a letter of responsibility with a hard date,

3426
02:44:59.434 --> 02:45:03.204
and if it's not taken care of by that time, tickets are issued.

3427
02:45:03.244 --> 02:45:04.564
We go to court.

3428
02:45:06.204 --> 02:45:09.944
If they failed to do it by that time, a second

3429
02:45:09.954 --> 02:45:13.584
ticket would be issued. We would continue the process.

3430
02:45:15.404 --> 02:45:17.684
I have not gone to a misdemeanor yet on this,

3431
02:45:18.884 --> 02:45:22.844
but it is possible that it could climb all the way up to a misdemeanor.

3432
02:45:22.944 --> 02:45:24.384
So, like these people tonight,

3433
02:45:25.304 --> 02:45:28.053
they're not in fear of this immediate $1,000 a day-

3434
02:45:28.564 --> 02:45:28.944
No

3435
02:45:28.954 --> 02:45:29.684
... fine?

3436
02:45:29.744 --> 02:45:31.684
No. That is our standard letter.

3437
02:45:33.924 --> 02:45:37.124
For the most part, people do come in

3438
02:45:38.024 --> 02:45:40.024
and are worried about it and come in and talk to us.

3439
02:45:42.044 --> 02:45:42.524
The

3440
02:45:43.464 --> 02:45:44.084
first ticket

3441
02:45:45.204 --> 02:45:47.184
per offense would be $200.

3442
02:45:47.844 --> 02:45:48.124
Okay.

3443
02:45:48.384 --> 02:45:52.324
Second offense would be $400, and then the third offense

3444
02:45:52.364 --> 02:45:55.944
would be $1,000 as far as our

3445
02:45:55.964 --> 02:45:59.504
blight violations. Now, if they have multiple

3446
02:45:59.514 --> 02:46:02.184
offenses, it'd be $200 for the first one-

3447
02:46:02.744 --> 02:46:02.864
Okay

3448
02:46:02.904 --> 02:46:03.664
... and so forth.

3449
02:46:04.504 --> 02:46:08.404
All right. I'm not heartless when it comes to these people, but they have to

3450
02:46:08.444 --> 02:46:10.704
understand that somebody created the problems,

3451
02:46:11.524 --> 02:46:15.364
and at some point you either stop it or you just let it run rampant.

3452
02:46:15.444 --> 02:46:15.584
So,

3453
02:46:16.704 --> 02:46:17.844
I appreciate you explaining that.

3454
02:46:18.764 --> 02:46:19.724
Yeah, I think I got something.

3455
02:46:20.964 --> 02:46:23.524
I added a couple things, or add one little thing.

3456
02:46:23.604 --> 02:46:23.764
So,

3457
02:46:27.524 --> 02:46:28.104
I came up with

3458
02:46:29.504 --> 02:46:31.994
to send the council over a letter. Ms.

3459
02:46:32.124 --> 02:46:36.004
Pierce, I'll rewrite this with you because my chicken scratch, you probably can't

3460
02:46:36.604 --> 02:46:36.964
read this.

3461
02:46:37.504 --> 02:46:39.084
I'm just typing it right now.

3462
02:46:39.164 --> 02:46:40.364
So, we'd like to-

3463
02:46:42.604 --> 02:46:46.444
Thank you. So, per ZBA

3464
02:46:46.484 --> 02:46:50.224
members, I'd like to make a motion to cast a vote

3465
02:46:50.504 --> 02:46:51.564
to send a letter to

3466
02:46:52.384 --> 02:46:56.084
review ordinance section 4.06 regarding yard use to include

3467
02:46:56.124 --> 02:46:59.464
review of the issue of driveways being poured without a

3468
02:46:59.524 --> 02:47:03.364
permit and requiring a permit to pour a driveway and making clear the

3469
02:47:03.384 --> 02:47:07.264
restrictions about pouring into the front or side setbacks.

3470
02:47:07.644 --> 02:47:08.264
In addition,

3471
02:47:09.784 --> 02:47:13.664
would respectfully appreciate any additional suggestions or recommendations council

3472
02:47:13.704 --> 02:47:14.104
may have.

3473
02:47:16.514 --> 02:47:18.544
Perfect. Can you catch all that?

3474
02:47:18.604 --> 02:47:19.384
If you can read this.

3475
02:47:20.324 --> 02:47:20.744
Good luck.

3476
02:47:22.764 --> 02:47:23.534
She's got your email.

3477
02:47:23.564 --> 02:47:24.004
Yeah.

3478
02:47:26.484 --> 02:47:30.234
I'm recording it

3479
02:47:30.234 --> 02:47:30.534
right now.

3480
02:47:30.534 --> 02:47:32.514
I know. I kind of went... Yeah, hang on.

3481
02:47:32.514 --> 02:47:33.624
No, I can read that. We're good.

3482
02:47:33.974 --> 02:47:33.974
We good?

3483
02:47:34.464 --> 02:47:34.604
Mm-hmm.

3484
02:47:34.884 --> 02:47:38.264
Okay. So,

3485
02:47:38.344 --> 02:47:42.084
that's my recommendation letter, and I

3486
02:47:42.124 --> 02:47:44.644
submit that to the board to vote on.

3487
02:47:45.704 --> 02:47:47.324
I make a motion to accept that.

3488
02:47:49.404 --> 02:47:51.524
Is this just kind of the motion, or? Okay.

3489
02:47:51.844 --> 02:47:55.124
Motion to send that letter I just read into the record-

3490
02:47:55.324 --> 02:47:55.613
Oh, yeah

3491
02:47:55.613 --> 02:47:56.244
... over to council.

3492
02:47:56.564 --> 02:47:56.884
Yes.

3493
02:47:56.924 --> 02:47:58.684
Support by Mr. Sess.

3494
02:47:58.724 --> 02:47:59.404
They're not going to do anything.

3495
02:48:00.464 --> 02:48:00.964
All in favor?

3496
02:48:01.324 --> 02:48:01.484
Aye.

3497
02:48:01.514 --> 02:48:01.514
Aye.

3498
02:48:01.524 --> 02:48:02.584
Anybody opposed?

3499
02:48:03.124 --> 02:48:03.904
Anybody opposed?

3500
02:48:04.184 --> 02:48:04.264
No.

3501
02:48:04.724 --> 02:48:04.924
No.

3502
02:48:05.864 --> 02:48:07.464
So, the motion was approved.

3503
02:48:07.544 --> 02:48:08.064
Unanimous.

3504
02:48:10.384 --> 02:48:12.094
And before we get a motion to adjourn-

3505
02:48:13.464 --> 02:48:14.684
Oh, we have one more item.

3506
02:48:14.844 --> 02:48:15.144
Oh, okay.

3507
02:48:15.904 --> 02:48:16.053
Oh, I'm sorry.

3508
02:48:16.053 --> 02:48:17.024
No, go ahead. Did you have-

3509
02:48:18.724 --> 02:48:22.444
Nicole has three kittens in the office back there if anyone is interested in a

3510
02:48:22.504 --> 02:48:24.304
kitten. They're all very cute.

3511
02:48:25.684 --> 02:48:26.044
No, thanks.

3512
02:48:27.184 --> 02:48:27.404
Wouldn't-

3513
02:48:28.204 --> 02:48:29.584
I owe you one or something?

3514
02:48:29.964 --> 02:48:32.264
Wouldn't that come under announcements? We don't have announcements.

3515
02:48:32.324 --> 02:48:32.514
I guess it does.

3516
02:48:32.514 --> 02:48:33.544
No, we don't have announcements.

3517
02:48:33.724 --> 02:48:33.884
Okay.

3518
02:48:34.404 --> 02:48:35.143
Motion to adjourn.

3519
02:48:35.444 --> 02:48:36.594
The one other item f-

3520
02:48:37.004 --> 02:48:38.064
Oh, Jim. Go ahead.

3521
02:48:38.744 --> 02:48:42.104
The one other item for new business is last

3522
02:48:42.504 --> 02:48:44.424
meeting we received

3523
02:48:47.184 --> 02:48:48.464
the, I guess the-

3524
02:48:48.924 --> 02:48:49.304
Bylaws

3525
02:48:49.314 --> 02:48:52.704
... bylaws addition for what we talked about, about

3526
02:48:53.424 --> 02:48:55.444
postponement and adjournment and stuff.

3527
02:48:56.504 --> 02:48:58.424
I don't know if everybody had a chance to review this.

3528
02:48:58.864 --> 02:48:59.024
Yeah.

3529
02:49:00.204 --> 02:49:01.224
Well, Mr. Chair?

3530
02:49:01.884 --> 02:49:02.564
Yes, Mr. Green.

3531
02:49:02.684 --> 02:49:05.844
So, when I brought this up, I think we need to look at this real

3532
02:49:05.884 --> 02:49:08.303
close. So, what's the process here?

3533
02:49:08.444 --> 02:49:11.404
When will this come, we'll have to vote on it.

3534
02:49:11.904 --> 02:49:14.104
Are we just hashing through it right now for a while or?

3535
02:49:14.964 --> 02:49:17.554
Because for example, when you guys read through this,

3536
02:49:18.304 --> 02:49:21.693
we asked for

3537
02:49:24.164 --> 02:49:26.244
seven eight and seven nine, things that

3538
02:49:26.324 --> 02:49:30.134
were in reference to adjournment

3539
02:49:30.184 --> 02:49:33.724
of scheduled hearings. And what we got was

3540
02:49:34.684 --> 02:49:35.864
two pages of ethics

3541
02:49:37.104 --> 02:49:40.624
stuff that we didn't ask for. And if you look at the ethics when you get a chance

3542
02:49:40.644 --> 02:49:43.114
and go home because it's getting late and we won't have time to do it,

3543
02:49:44.424 --> 02:49:46.964
I find 10.11 offensive.

3544
02:49:47.934 --> 02:49:51.864
The ZBA and its members shall not intrude into the

3545
02:49:51.924 --> 02:49:55.824
management of the City Planning and Development Services Unit, whatever that

3546
02:49:55.904 --> 02:49:56.124
is.

3547
02:49:56.964 --> 02:50:00.444
Members of the ZBA shall communicate with the city staff through the

3548
02:50:00.524 --> 02:50:04.164
ZBA's designated staff liaison, whoever that is,

3549
02:50:04.724 --> 02:50:08.624
unless otherwise authorized by the city administration and shall follow

3550
02:50:08.644 --> 02:50:10.904
applicable city administrative policies.

3551
02:50:11.824 --> 02:50:15.644
I don't understand where that came from and

3552
02:50:15.684 --> 02:50:19.664
why we would... Keep in mind, these are our rules that we make

3553
02:50:19.724 --> 02:50:20.584
for ourselves.

3554
02:50:21.604 --> 02:50:25.594
So, we're going to neuter ourselves by passing a bylaw that says you

3555
02:50:25.604 --> 02:50:25.614
can't-

3556
02:50:25.644 --> 02:50:27.084
I think that already exists

3557
02:50:27.204 --> 02:50:28.844
... We didn't ask for any of those.

3558
02:50:29.344 --> 02:50:31.904
The only thing that's changed is the stuff in green.

3559
02:50:32.024 --> 02:50:32.304
No.

3560
02:50:33.244 --> 02:50:36.383
Go to your book of bylaws, buddy. All this is different.

3561
02:50:38.084 --> 02:50:40.484
The only stuff that has changed is the stuff in green.

3562
02:50:41.544 --> 02:50:41.644
No.

3563
02:50:42.804 --> 02:50:45.964
I went to the bylaws online. This whole thing is different.

3564
02:50:45.974 --> 02:50:49.834
Nowhere in the bylaws online does it say, "The ZBA and

3565
02:50:49.864 --> 02:50:52.394
its members shall not intrude into the management of city planning."

3566
02:50:53.704 --> 02:50:54.504
Or show it to me.

3567
02:50:54.564 --> 02:50:56.804
There was a request from council.

3568
02:50:56.844 --> 02:50:58.024
Jennifer, please stop screaming at me.

3569
02:50:58.144 --> 02:50:58.304
I'm-

3570
02:50:58.324 --> 02:51:00.714
One time you stood... Point of, excuse me, Mr. Chair.

3571
02:51:01.324 --> 02:51:04.124
One time you stood up today and screamed at me in the middle of a meeting.

3572
02:51:05.184 --> 02:51:08.444
So please stop raising your voice at me. I'm just trying to get this figured out.

3573
02:51:08.524 --> 02:51:12.144
My apologies. I was told that no one can hear me.

3574
02:51:13.084 --> 02:51:14.104
Well, how come you stood up?

3575
02:51:14.284 --> 02:51:18.244
This document was sent to council at their request for

3576
02:51:18.304 --> 02:51:22.284
things that are missing in rules of procedure and bylaws, and

3577
02:51:22.344 --> 02:51:25.964
the attorney's office reviewed every single commission.

3578
02:51:26.424 --> 02:51:30.364
Ultimately, there is nothing in your rules of procedure

3579
02:51:30.464 --> 02:51:32.504
dealing with conflicts of interest.

3580
02:51:33.104 --> 02:51:36.744
These particular provisions were taken from a

3581
02:51:36.824 --> 02:51:40.004
sample document drafted by Michigan State

3582
02:51:40.144 --> 02:51:41.384
University. So-

3583
02:51:41.474 --> 02:51:42.214
Well, that's obvious

3584
02:51:43.144 --> 02:51:46.244
... ultimately, this was requested by council.

3585
02:51:46.324 --> 02:51:46.584
I didn't-

3586
02:51:46.644 --> 02:51:49.224
Okay. Whether council requested or not, I appreciate that

3587
02:51:50.444 --> 02:51:54.364
designation, though. So I want board members to look at this because these are

3588
02:51:54.404 --> 02:51:56.304
not council's rules. They're our rules.

3589
02:51:56.984 --> 02:52:00.884
They're the rules that we live by, and I'm uncomfortable with 10.11.

3590
02:52:02.344 --> 02:52:03.164
How about this one?

3591
02:52:04.244 --> 02:52:07.794
Like 10.12, for example. "Members shall conduct themselves in a fair and courteous

3592
02:52:07.844 --> 02:52:11.284
manner." Okay, I agree with that, but to...

3593
02:52:11.504 --> 02:52:15.364
And to go on, you have to read it because

3594
02:52:15.664 --> 02:52:19.544
I think that you, too, will think that these are a little bit of a

3595
02:52:19.744 --> 02:52:20.264
stretch.

3596
02:52:22.644 --> 02:52:24.774
I think people should read it close and,

3597
02:52:25.744 --> 02:52:29.514
again, these are our rules, not city council's or anybody else's, and I'm not

3598
02:52:29.544 --> 02:52:31.724
looking for a p*****g match with you, Jennifer.

3599
02:52:31.784 --> 02:52:35.504
I'm just trying to make sure that the documents that we do are finalized.

3600
02:52:35.684 --> 02:52:37.584
I'm not looking for a p*****g match with you either, David.

3601
02:52:38.284 --> 02:52:41.664
I just want to make sure that everybody understands each other, and I do not

3602
02:52:41.704 --> 02:52:44.244
appreciate that you stood up in the meeting and screamed at me.

3603
02:52:44.774 --> 02:52:44.774
No.

3604
02:52:44.804 --> 02:52:47.124
So, and you're going to hear about it. I don't appreciate it.

3605
02:52:48.584 --> 02:52:49.304
Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3606
02:52:49.344 --> 02:52:50.144
Mr. Chair.

3607
02:52:50.224 --> 02:52:51.024
Yes, Mr. Watts.

3608
02:52:51.284 --> 02:52:55.124
I got one item. I watched the planning commission meeting as I always do

3609
02:52:55.184 --> 02:52:58.784
because there's a lot of things that goes on at that planning commission that is

3610
02:52:58.804 --> 02:53:02.584
going to end up here. So I always want a clear picture of what's heading towards

3611
02:53:02.624 --> 02:53:02.763
us.

3612
02:53:03.564 --> 02:53:04.573
And the other night, there was,

3613
02:53:06.124 --> 02:53:09.934
on the agenda, letter to the ZBA about comments that were made at

3614
02:53:10.024 --> 02:53:14.004
our previous meeting. So I sat there and I watched that meeting for three

3615
02:53:14.044 --> 02:53:14.833
and a half hours,

3616
02:53:16.604 --> 02:53:20.484
and they received and filed it. I want to know what that letter said that they

3617
02:53:20.564 --> 02:53:21.124
sent to us.

3618
02:53:24.964 --> 02:53:28.824
Do we know who or where that letter is, or

3619
02:53:29.984 --> 02:53:32.524
any idea? They're told that it'd come to our office?

3620
02:53:36.404 --> 02:53:39.494
I mean, I went back and watched our meeting, the part that

3621
02:53:39.524 --> 02:53:43.244
they had originally said it was going to in

3622
02:53:43.264 --> 02:53:46.704
regards to, and I couldn't see anything in there that

3623
02:53:48.144 --> 02:53:51.864
was a problem. And all they did was receive and file a letter, so I don't know what

3624
02:53:51.904 --> 02:53:55.444
it says. They said they sent it to us, and I'd like to know what they're

3625
02:53:55.484 --> 02:53:57.424
accusing us of.

3626
02:53:58.544 --> 02:54:01.624
I'm thinking would they have sent it to the council office or-

3627
02:54:01.673 --> 02:54:04.644
Yeah. I don't know. It came to my email, and I didn't

3628
02:54:04.824 --> 02:54:06.344
know what it was for.

3629
02:54:10.284 --> 02:54:10.704
Fair enough.

3630
02:54:11.764 --> 02:54:12.124
Thank you.

3631
02:54:15.504 --> 02:54:19.444
So I had one question going back to this

3632
02:54:19.504 --> 02:54:20.524
ordinance proposal.

3633
02:54:20.624 --> 02:54:20.784
Yeah.

3634
02:54:22.204 --> 02:54:26.044
Under 7.8, where "the petitioner's entitled to one adjournment for

3635
02:54:26.104 --> 02:54:29.904
good cause shown. The petitioner can request one adjournment of a scheduled

3636
02:54:29.944 --> 02:54:33.744
hearing. No more adjournments will be granted." So in the

3637
02:54:33.804 --> 02:54:37.654
case of use variances, where we don't have a full

3638
02:54:37.824 --> 02:54:38.244
board,

3639
02:54:39.424 --> 02:54:43.364
and they have the right to have a full

3640
02:54:43.424 --> 02:54:44.584
board for their thing,

3641
02:54:46.144 --> 02:54:49.364
is that a conflict with this? Or is it-

3642
02:54:50.364 --> 02:54:53.934
The use variance, I mean, everyone's

3643
02:54:53.964 --> 02:54:55.484
entitled to have a full board.

3644
02:54:56.044 --> 02:54:56.364
Okay.

3645
02:54:57.444 --> 02:55:00.504
And forgive me, because I'm not going to remember the

3646
02:55:00.564 --> 02:55:04.064
particular section of the bylaws, but

3647
02:55:05.204 --> 02:55:08.764
that is one reason if the board

3648
02:55:08.824 --> 02:55:10.184
fails to give

3649
02:55:11.164 --> 02:55:12.384
the petitioner notice

3650
02:55:13.344 --> 02:55:16.164
that they could adjourn it because we don't have a full board.

3651
02:55:16.224 --> 02:55:19.804
That's one reason for reconsideration by this

3652
02:55:19.844 --> 02:55:20.324
board.

3653
02:55:21.204 --> 02:55:23.944
I mean, am I making any sense?

3654
02:55:24.004 --> 02:55:24.184
Mm-hmm.

3655
02:55:25.644 --> 02:55:25.944
You are.

3656
02:55:26.464 --> 02:55:26.664
I mean-

3657
02:55:26.704 --> 02:55:26.944
That's it

3658
02:55:27.144 --> 02:55:30.204
... we don't have to let anyone have an adjournment.

3659
02:55:30.944 --> 02:55:33.824
It's just one, it allows the board to reconsider

3660
02:55:33.864 --> 02:55:36.444
and undo what they did.

3661
02:55:39.604 --> 02:55:43.524
I mean, typically the board's decisions are final when made.

3662
02:55:43.704 --> 02:55:43.714
Yeah.

3663
02:55:43.724 --> 02:55:47.684
If we failed to give notice to someone that we didn't have

3664
02:55:47.704 --> 02:55:50.804
a full board for a use variance, that's a reason to say,

3665
02:55:51.524 --> 02:55:53.464
"Oops, it's not final. We're going to redo this."

3666
02:55:54.644 --> 02:55:58.624
Okay. Thank you, Jennifer. So for, and just as an example, this is why I

3667
02:55:58.684 --> 02:56:01.464
think we need to look this over very closely, people.

3668
02:56:02.504 --> 02:56:06.244
7.8, I think it should say, "For good cause shown, the

3669
02:56:06.264 --> 02:56:08.804
petitioner may request one adjournment of a scheduled hearing.

3670
02:56:09.664 --> 02:56:11.044
No more adjournments are granted,"

3671
02:56:11.884 --> 02:56:12.364
period.

3672
02:56:13.564 --> 02:56:15.884
But nowhere in 7.8 does it say,

3673
02:56:16.984 --> 02:56:18.564
do we put it on the next agenda,

3674
02:56:19.644 --> 02:56:20.064
or do we

3675
02:56:21.164 --> 02:56:23.094
remove it, or do they have to reapply?

3676
02:56:23.704 --> 02:56:24.654
So we just need to

3677
02:56:26.804 --> 02:56:30.314
have this be a working document, kind of work through it and make sure it says what

3678
02:56:30.344 --> 02:56:31.184
we want it to say.

3679
02:56:32.364 --> 02:56:34.444
That was my only point. I wasn't trying to-

3680
02:56:34.824 --> 02:56:35.304
I agree.

3681
02:56:35.344 --> 02:56:38.194
And the other stuff, it's new to us because it's not in our

3682
02:56:38.984 --> 02:56:40.624
bylaws right now, so.

3683
02:56:40.684 --> 02:56:44.024
So do we want to take the time between now and our next meeting-

3684
02:56:44.054 --> 02:56:44.574
It could take a long time

3685
02:56:44.584 --> 02:56:46.284
... everybody can just review it again.

3686
02:56:46.364 --> 02:56:46.904
Yeah.

3687
02:56:46.944 --> 02:56:49.704
And then for the next meeting, we can come-

3688
02:56:50.364 --> 02:56:51.924
I don't think it's anything we have to solve in

3689
02:56:53.024 --> 02:56:53.664
two weeks, but-

3690
02:56:53.944 --> 02:56:54.004
No

3691
02:56:54.204 --> 02:56:55.194
... haven't had this in a while

3692
02:56:55.194 --> 02:56:57.664
... I think we take our time and do it right, make sure it's what we want, so

3693
02:57:01.336 --> 02:57:05.056
That's all that I had. Did anybody else have any other new business or...?

3694
02:57:05.336 --> 02:57:09.076
Just one thing. There is part of those sections in the conflicts of

3695
02:57:09.096 --> 02:57:10.066
interest that I think

3696
02:57:10.896 --> 02:57:14.796
would be very beneficial, directly related to a

3697
02:57:14.856 --> 02:57:18.596
situation which many of you are aware that

3698
02:57:18.636 --> 02:57:22.176
occurred, where ZBA members went out and identified

3699
02:57:22.216 --> 02:57:26.016
themselves as members of the zoning

3700
02:57:26.256 --> 02:57:26.836
staff,

3701
02:57:28.516 --> 02:57:32.096
identified themselves as people who didn't have authority to be

3702
02:57:32.136 --> 02:57:33.396
there and do what they were doing.

3703
02:57:33.476 --> 02:57:34.876
I'm not aware of this. When was that?

3704
02:57:35.696 --> 02:57:37.016
We can talk after. I don't-

3705
02:57:37.816 --> 02:57:38.636
Was it our board?

3706
02:57:38.696 --> 02:57:38.876
Yes.

3707
02:57:39.076 --> 02:57:39.156
Yes.

3708
02:57:40.956 --> 02:57:41.836
Okay. Interesting.

3709
02:57:42.576 --> 02:57:43.396
And also,

3710
02:57:44.756 --> 02:57:48.096
there was another instance where a member of the Zoning Board of Appeals

3711
02:57:48.196 --> 02:57:52.176
was sitting on the front porch with a petitioner

3712
02:57:52.196 --> 02:57:54.636
and got into a p*****g match with the neighborhood.

3713
02:57:54.756 --> 02:57:55.016
So,

3714
02:57:56.036 --> 02:57:59.806
a lot of these rules are necessary so that

3715
02:57:59.896 --> 02:58:00.996
you maintain a-

3716
02:58:01.456 --> 02:58:01.876
And you doc-

3717
02:58:01.896 --> 02:58:03.086
... the appearance of impropriety

3718
02:58:03.096 --> 02:58:06.086
And you documented all this through investigation or...?

3719
02:58:06.296 --> 02:58:06.836
100%.

3720
02:58:07.036 --> 02:58:07.436
Yeah.

3721
02:58:07.516 --> 02:58:08.216
Really?

3722
02:58:08.416 --> 02:58:08.996
100%.

3723
02:58:09.056 --> 02:58:10.896
Good to know. So it was a secret to the rest of us?

3724
02:58:12.046 --> 02:58:12.696
She'll talk to you.

3725
02:58:13.116 --> 02:58:14.136
I will talk to you after.

3726
02:58:14.356 --> 02:58:14.516
Okay.

3727
02:58:14.656 --> 02:58:16.836
Mr. Green, I believe it was before you joined us.

3728
02:58:16.896 --> 02:58:19.216
Okay. I'm just curious. I'm like, "What the heck?"

3729
02:58:20.536 --> 02:58:22.476
I want to say, "Gary, you've got to stop."

3730
02:58:22.596 --> 02:58:24.416
Mr. Nostarvich, if I may?

3731
02:58:24.696 --> 02:58:25.116
Yes.

3732
02:58:25.156 --> 02:58:28.956
Can I request that the attorney send a copy of the

3733
02:58:28.996 --> 02:58:32.776
draft as it's proposed to administration, my

3734
02:58:32.876 --> 02:58:36.076
boss, Evert, and to council office, so they have a copy of

3735
02:58:36.116 --> 02:58:37.876
it to review as well?

3736
02:58:38.156 --> 02:58:39.076
The rules of procedure?

3737
02:58:39.216 --> 02:58:39.356
Yeah.

3738
02:58:40.156 --> 02:58:43.116
Yes, and again, I want to make myself clear.

3739
02:58:43.476 --> 02:58:45.786
This board asked me to do something.

3740
02:58:45.856 --> 02:58:46.536
I understand.

3741
02:58:46.996 --> 02:58:50.896
Council asked for a review of every single commission to see maybe

3742
02:58:50.936 --> 02:58:54.496
what was missing and what could be updated, and I tried to-

3743
02:58:54.696 --> 02:58:55.936
And I appreciate all that

3744
02:58:55.996 --> 02:58:56.546
... so look at it

3745
02:58:56.546 --> 02:58:59.716
... but I'd like to look from the administration part if there's anything

3746
02:59:00.556 --> 02:59:01.616
that I could suggest-

3747
02:59:01.716 --> 02:59:02.006
You need to be- Absolutely

3748
02:59:02.006 --> 02:59:02.976
... or be aware of. So.

3749
02:59:03.756 --> 02:59:03.766
Absolutely.

3750
02:59:03.776 --> 02:59:04.236
That's all.

3751
02:59:06.296 --> 02:59:09.976
But they're our bylaws, not the administration's.

3752
02:59:10.476 --> 02:59:10.636
Yes.

3753
02:59:10.955 --> 02:59:11.876
We're a vote on them.

3754
02:59:12.015 --> 02:59:15.396
But if there's something that conflicts with ordinances, we've got to make you

3755
02:59:15.476 --> 02:59:16.036
aware of that.

3756
02:59:16.836 --> 02:59:17.556
In a bylaw?

3757
02:59:18.576 --> 02:59:19.856
Yeah. There could be.

3758
02:59:20.096 --> 02:59:21.996
Really? God, I'm learning every day.

3759
02:59:23.396 --> 02:59:24.426
See, you're never too old to learn.

3760
02:59:24.556 --> 02:59:25.236
You're never too old.

3761
02:59:26.196 --> 02:59:27.756
Motion to adjourn.

3762
02:59:27.956 --> 02:59:28.736
Motion to adjourn.

3763
02:59:29.076 --> 02:59:29.896
Support.

3764
02:59:29.936 --> 02:59:30.476
All in favor?

3765
02:59:30.696 --> 02:59:30.976
Aye.

3766
02:59:31.106 --> 02:59:31.106
Aye.

3767
02:59:31.116 --> 02:59:31.976
Anybody opposed?

3768
02:59:33.316 --> 02:59:34.116
Okay. Meeting

3769
02:59:34.936 --> 02:59:36.376
adjourned at 9:59.